D&D (2024) Multiclassing and ability score drain?

ECMO3 · Tuesday at 10:34 PM

Voadam said:
I should have looked up the exact wording before writing instead of relying upon rules memoy.

It does have language about your existing class minimum. I was only remembering the new class language. And the narrative emphasis fluff about requiring being a quick study in the new class. "Without the full training that a beginning character receives, you must be a quick study in your new class."

MULTICLASSING
Multiclassing allows you to gain levels in multiple
classes. Doing so lets you mix the abilities of those
classes to realize a character concept that might not be
reflected in one of the standard class options.
With this rule, you have the option of gaining a level
in a new class whenever you advance in level, instead
of gaining a level in your current class. Your levels in
all your classes are added together to determine your
character level. For example, if you have three levels in
wizard and two in fighter, you're a 5th-level character.
As you advance in levels, you might primarily remain
a member of your original class with just a few levels
in another class, or you might change course entirely,
never looking back at the class you left behind. You
might even start progressing in a third or fourth class.
Compared to a single-class character of the same level,
you'll sacrifice some focus in exchange for versatility.
PREREQUISITES
To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score
prerequisites for both your current class and your new
one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table.
For example, a barbarian who decides to multiclass into
the druid class must have both Strength and Wisdom
scores of 13 or higher. Without the full training that
a beginning character receives, you must be a quick
study in your new class, having a natural aptitude that
is reflected by higher-than-average ability scores.
MULTICLASSING PREREQUISITES
Class Ability Score Minimum
Barbarian Strength 13
Bard Charisma 13
Cleric Wisdom 13
Druid Wisdom 13
Fighter Strength 13 or Dexterity 13
Monk Dexterity 1 3 and Wisdom 13
Paladin Strength 13 and Charisma 13
Ranger Dexterity 13 and Wisdom 13
Rogue Dexterity 13
Sorcerer Charisma 13
Warlock Charisma 13
Wizard Intelligence 13

So current class is a bit ambiguous but sounds to me like the one you took for your most recent level. If they had meant your original class I think they would have said so.

If your last/current class is rogue you can multiclass to monk by my reading RAW because you have the rogue and monk class prereqs.

By the same account if your last level was wizard and you can no longer multiclass out of it, the question of whether you can take a level of rogue is interesting. I would not read rogue in these circumstances as a new class.

It is possible to read current class as all your current classes in which case you can't multiclass into a new one now that you have lost the wizard prereq.

A ruling not rules situation to check with how your DM wants to handle it.

I think current class means all the classes you currently have. Also if "current class" is just the last class you took then if my last class was Wizard I could not take a Monk level but I could also not take any more Rogue levels as Wizard is my "current class" so I would only be able to take more Wizard levels.

ECMO3 · Tuesday at 10:52 PM

mellored said:
I can run an 8 Str / 16 Dex paladin just fine.

Especially the playtest one who gets an AC bonus when not in heavy armor.

It is more than fine, it is OP because with a 16 Dex you can also dump Charisma and run 16 Constitution and 16 Intelligence on point buy. On the other hand, if you need a 13 Charisma and 13 Strength you can only run a 16 in one of these and need to put an 8 in the other on point buy or split it and put 10 in one and 14 in another or 13 and 12. Any way you slice it you are substantially less powerful at most levels.

You don't want the UA playtest one because that takes 3 levels, which kills 2d6 in sneak attack. In the 2024 rules you want 1 level in Paladin for Divine Smite, and then all your other levels in Rogue for sneak attack.

The highest damage I ever seen in play on a single hit with a PC prior to the 2024 rules came from that Paladin-Rogue.

That isn't the craziest combo though. I think a human UA Paladin 3/UA Bladesinger with 16 Dex, 16 Charisma, 16 Intelligence that dumps everything else is. You have Bladesinger-like AC full time and Bladesinger+3 AC when in Bladesong, and then shield, shield of faith and mirror image while rocking cantrip extra attacks plus divine smite and upcast false life to make up for your hit point shortfall. It won't put out as much damage as the Rogue (or Valor Bard) combo, but it will be near impossible to hit. This is something I actually want to try, but there is a huge difference in capability if you need to comply with the 13 strength minimum, enough that it goes from being OP to actually being underpowered.

mellored said:
The old smite had issues, but that doesn't really have anything to do with prerequisites. Rogue / pally isn't more powerful than Valor Bard pally.

It is substantially more powerful at most levels as a melee character because of Divine Smite and Sneak Attack.

At 12th level (1 Paladin/11 Rogue) with Green Flame Blade you are looking at 7d8+6d6+dex using a 3rd level smite slot or 3d8+6d6+dex at will. Then add another 2d8+Intelligence to a second creature within 5 feet.

A 11/1 Valor Bard/Paladin with a Greatsword/Maul and Truestrike is doing nearly the same Nova: 6d6+7d8+2xCharisma but needs to use a 6th level divine smite to do that, and he only gets one of those, compared to two 3rd level slots for the same damage for the Paladin-Rogue. Also this drops or 6d6+2xcharisma at will and he needs to run at least a 2nd level smite to match the Rogue's at will damage.

At lower levels the Bard mix is further behind.

mellored · Wednesday at 1:06 AM

ECMO3 said:
The highest damage I ever seen in play on a single hit with a PC prior to the 2024 rules came from that Paladin-Rogue

They only do 1 hit. It needs to be big.

ECMO3 said:
At 12th level with Green Flame Blade you are looking at 7d8+6d6+dex using a 3rd level smite slot or 3d8+6d6+dex at will. Then add another 2d8+Intelligence to a second creature within 5 feet.

A 11/1 Valor Bard/Paladin with a Greatsword/Maul and Truestrike is doing nearly the same Nova: 6d6+7d8+2xCharisma but needs to use a 6th level divine smite to do that, and he only gets one of those, compared to two 3rd level slots for the same damage for the Paladin-Rogue. Also this drops or 6d6+2xcharisma at will and he needs to run at least a 2nd level smite to match the Rogue's at will damage.

Which has nothing to do with ability perquisites

Also, the rogue deals 70.5 damage, melee, assuming 2 targets in range (57.5 without).
Disintegrate is 75, ranged, more with empowered metamagic

ECMO3 · Wednesday at 2:50 AM

mellored said:
They only do 1 hit. It needs to be big.

Which has nothing to do with ability perquisites

Also, the rogue deals 70.5 damage, melee, assuming 2 targets in range (57.5 without).
Disintegrate is 75, ranged, more with empowered metamagic

Sneak Attack and Divine Smite does WAY more damage in play, not just a little more.

Disintegrate is 75 average on a failed save, which is going to happen A LOT less often than the Rogue hitting, especially considering Vex. Worse there is no save for half and to add insult to injury a Rogue does not even use his spell slot on a miss, meaning he still has it.

At 12th level the average damage done by Disintegrate is probably around 35 when you consider saves and Legendary Resistance. It is about as effective as a Death Cleric spamming Toll The Dead on two baddies.

The Rogue has two 3rd level spell slots and can do that 70.5 twice (or 57.5 against one target) AND he always cashes in because he does not use the slot if he does not hit. Meaning a Rogue will always get that damage if he burns the slot on a smite.

Moonmover · Wednesday at 3:09 AM

You're already a Rogue and already a Wizard. You can't multiclass again (into a third class) unless you get your Intelligence back by whatever means.

mellored · Wednesday at 3:10 AM

ECMO3 said:
Disintegrate is 75 average on a failed save, which is going to happen A LOT less than the Rogue hitting, especially considering Vex, worse there is no save for half and he does not expend the slot on a miss.

Your moving the goal post a bit. But Heighted and Silvery Barbs says Disintegrate has a pretty solid chance to land.

Also, Vex isn't helping. You already hit.
Nick certainly helps though.

But they are still not beating the highest single hit.

ECMO3 said:
On top of this the Rogue has two spell slots and can do that 70.5 twice (or 57.5 against one target) AND he always cashes in because he does not use the slot if he does not hit.

If we are talking multi-target.
Chain lighting will do 180 vs 4, 90 if they all save.

And I'm not going to calculate the millions of damage you could do casting circle of death on a tightly packed group of tiny creatures.

It's ok if the rogue can be a bit more reliable, since he needs to go into melee, and can't fly or get away (you used your 3rd level slot and bonus action smite).

Either way. Damage isn't affected by multiclass requirements. Removing them would just give the rogue +2 Con.

ECMO3 · Wednesday at 4:32 AM

mellored said:
Your moving the goal post a bit. But Heighted and Silvery Barbs says Disintegrate has a pretty solid chance to land.

There is no way Disintegrate generally outruns Sneak Attack + Divine Smite in play at this level.

Heightened??? You are talking about a Bard 11/Paladin 1 right?

In the 2024 rules you can't cast Silvery Barbs if you already cast Disintegration unless you have it through Magic Initiate, and you can only do that once a day and if we are considering Origin feats ..... then well lucky.

Since we are bringing this up though I will point out that the Rogue multiclass at this level has Magical Ambush and can use a bonus action-hide to give enemies disadvantage on their save against their spells without even using Silvery Barbs (or sorcery points). With an RAW 1-level Paladin multiclass they are doing this with 76hps and a 13 DC or 65hps and a 14 DC. With a homebrew no minimum score multiclass they are doing it with 98hps and a 16 DC.

mellored said:
Also, Vex isn't helping. You already hit.

You are comparing a save or suck which uses the slot on a made save vs an attack roll.

Vex absolutely matters, as does advantage from allies which is going to happen a lot in 2024 .... a lot more often than the reroll from Silvery Barbs is going to come into play.

mellored said:
Nick certainly helps though.

You can't use nick, because you need to take the attack action for Nick and you do a lot more damage using a cantrip.

A Valor Bard Paladin can use nick, but then you are using 1d6 weapons instead of 2d6 weapons.

mellored said:
But they are still not beating the highest single hit.

They will beat a multiclassed Valor Bard in play by quite a bit and I never said we were only talking about the best single hit.

However, I did say we were talking about melee, which mmeans Disintegrate or Chain Lightning are what is really moving the goal posts.

Question for you:

How many high level Paladin-Rogues have you seen in play in 5E or 2024? How many of those ignored the multi-class minimums?

mellored said:
Either way. Damage isn't affected by multiclass requirements. Removing them would just give the rogue +2 Con.

I didn't say damage was affected much (it is affected a little bit), but it makes for a far more effective PC overall. Far more effective!

Any Arcane Trickster with a Paladin dip can do top tier damage, and be great at skills but one that ignores multiclass requirements can be super durable and be a pretty darn good spell caster on top of that.

Paladin, Barbarian and Sorcerer in particular are 3 classes that can be dipped to become really OP if you drop the multiclass ability requirements. In 2024 you can add Monk and Ranger to that list.

James Gasik · Wednesday at 5:25 AM

ECMO3 said:
In the 2024 rules you can't cast Silvery Barbs if you already cast Disintegration unless you have it through Magic Initiate, and you can only do that once a day and if we are considering Origin feats ..... then well lucky.

RE: Silvery Barbs

Level 10 Bard

Level 10: Magical Secrets

You’ve learned secrets from various magical traditions. Whenever you reach a Bard level (including this level) and the Prepared Spells number in the Bard Features table increases, you can choose any of your new prepared spells from the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists, and the chosen spells count as Bard spells for you (see a class’s section for its spell list). In addition, whenever you replace a spell prepared for this class, you can replace it with a spell from those lists.

mellored · Wednesday at 5:55 AM

ECMO3 said:
There is no way Disintegrate generally outruns Sneak Attack + Divine Smite in play at this level.

You're moving the goal post even more.

Because you where talking about single hit nova damage, and 75 is more than 57.5.

ECMO3 said:
Heightened??? You are talking about a Bard 11/Paladin 1 right?

Straight sorcerer.

You would need to add in bardic inspiration to really see how much damage the bard is doing. (I.e turning an allies miss into a hit).

And that's complicated.
At minimum it's 5d10 extra damage for a Valor bard. And that's the worse option.

ECMO3 said:
In the 2024 rules you can't cast Silvery Barbs if you already cast Disintegration unless you have it through Magic Initiate, and you can only do that once a day and if we are considering Origin feats ..... then well lucky.

Lucky gives advantage 4 times.
Heightened gives disadvantage 9 times, not including using slots.

ECMO3 said:
Since we are bringing this up though I will point out that the Rogue multiclass at this level has Magical Ambush and can use a bonus action-hide to give enemies disadvantage on their save against their spells without even using Silvery Barbs (or sorcery points).

You can't smite and hide. You have 1 bonus action.

ECMO3 said:
With an RAW 1-level Paladin multiclass they are doing this with 76hps and a 13 DC or 65hps and a 14 DC. With a homebrew no minimum score multiclass they are doing it with 98hps and a 16 DC.

Multiclass means you don't get the level 12 bump. So your behind a straight rogue.

If it was inspiring leader, the smitrs cost you 30 THP for everyone in your party.

ECMO3 said:
You are comparing a save or suck which uses the slot on a made save vs an attack roll.

I'm comparing
nova damage using the highest level slot
vs nova damage using the highest level slot.

ECMO3 said:
Vex absolutely matters

how?
If you hit. You smite.
If you miss, you don't get advantage.

Vex only helps with multiple attacks.

ECMO3 said:
, as does advantage from allies which is going to happen a lot in 2024 .... a lot more often than the reroll from Silvery Barbs is going to come into play.

If we are adding allies... I want a GOO warlock.

ECMO3 said:
You can't use nick, because you need to take the attack action for Nick and you do a lot more damage using a cantrip.

If your using cantrips then all the more reason Vex isn't helping.

ECMO3 said:
They will beat a multiclassed Valor Bard in play by quite a bit and I never said we were only talking about the best single hit.

You said. "The highest damage I ever seen in play on a single hit with a PC prior to the 2024 rules came from that Paladin-Rogue".

And i brought up Disintegrate would do more. No multiclass needed.

ECMO3 said:
However, I did say we were talking about melee, which mmeans Disintegrate or Chain Lightning are what is really moving the goal posts.

You can cast those in melee. Or at a distance.

ECMO3 said:
How many high level Paladin-Rogues have you seen in play in 5E or 2024? How many of those ignored the multi-class minimums?

None. And all of them.

ECMO3 said:
Any Arcane Trickster with a Paladin dip can do top tier damage, and be great at skills but one that ignores multiclass requirements can be super durable and be a pretty darn good spell caster on top of that.

No. You can smite OR cast Hypnotic Pattern. You don't have the slots for both.
And you don't have Warcaster or Resilient Con.

You slowed yourself down to add versatility. Either behind a d6 sneak attack, feat, or some other feature.

That's a reasonable trade off. You don't need to sacrifice 20HP as well.

ECMO3 said:
Paladin, Barbarian and Sorcerer in particular are 3 classes that can be dipped to become really OP if you drop the multiclass ability requirements. In 2024 you can add Monk and Ranger to that list.

The best dip in 2024 is fighter. Con saves, second wind, and fighting style.

Ranger is second, assuming you don't have another concentration thing. No one else gets 4 spells.

Paladin is third. Lay on hands can get people off the ground.

Monk is decent. Early on the bonus action punch is good, but most classes get competing bonus actions before too long.

Rage doesn't allow spells and only works with Str, so there's not a lot of classes that mesh with it.

Sorcerer's Innate Sorcery only works for Sorcerer spells. And if you really wanted cantrips you could grab one as a background.

DrJawaPhD · Wednesday at 6:32 AM

James Gasik said:
RE: Silvery Barbs

Level 10 Bard

Level 10: Magical Secrets
You’ve learned secrets from various magical traditions. Whenever you reach a Bard level (including this level) and the Prepared Spells number in the Bard Features table increases, you can choose any of your new prepared spells from the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists, and the chosen spells count as Bard spells for you (see a class’s section for its spell list). In addition, whenever you replace a spell prepared for this class, you can replace it with a spell from those lists.

He is referring to Silvery Barbs and Disintegrate both taking a spell slot therefore you cannot cast them in the same turn. Magical Secrets does not help with that restriction

D&D (2024) Multiclassing and ability score drain?

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