D&D General What Should Magic Be Able To Do, From a Gameplay Design Standpoint?

mamba said:

agreed, I am all for removing 6th level and up spells.. and pare the rest down a lot too

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There's a reason why the E6 version of D&D has its promotors.

One can't have 20 levels of a game where each level has noticeable progression before the identity of a character at 1st level versus them at 20th level has made them virtually unrecognizable.

CreamCloud0 said:

while i might not agree with all their listed desires i think it's a poor response to someone who said 'here are the things i want martials to be capable of' with 'it sounds like you need to be playing a spellcaster'

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Nevertheless it’s really important that to note there are ways for fighters to do the majority of those things right now in the game. Fighters, rogues, rangers, paladins. This is not about fighting characters not being able to things things it’s about the package they’re wrapped up in.

Corinnguard said:

They could always bring back nonlethal damage for every time a spellcaster casts a spell. Especially a spell they are not ready for.

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Nah, hp damage is trivial. Hit 'em where it hurts with changes or restrictions that aren't easily undone - and more interesting.

No one should be as good at consistently killing one dude as a fighter. But I also don't think there is some sort of "unfairness" in not giving martials AoE attacks and crowd control. That's what casters are for.

I do not like the idea of classes having limited spell list or having multiple full casters.

one fullcasting class is enough, with access to all spells.

but,

spells known are at the level of 2014 sorcerer. start at 2 spells and up to 15 spells at levels 17+
suclasses can give extra spells known as usual. depending on the subclass.
and you can exchange one spell known at level up.

this gives you freedom to make your mage anyway you like it with selection of spells, but the amount that you can bring to the fight is still limited.

example of subclass spell additions to spells known:

Healer;
cantrips; resistance, spare the dying
level 1; cure wounds, healing word
level 2; lesser restoration, healing spirit
level 3; mass healing word, revivify
level 4; Aura of light, death ward
level 5; mass cure wound, raise dead

Necromancer;
cantrips; chill touch, toll the dead
level 1; false life, inflict wounds
level 2; blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement
level 3; animate dead, summon undead
level 4; blight, shadow of moil
level 5; dance macabre, enervation

Kineticist;
cantrips; eldritch blast, mage hand
level 1; magic missile, shield
level 2; levitate, kinetic jaunt
level 3; fly, haste
level 4; Mordekainen's faithful hound, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5; animate objects, telekinesis

Traveler;
cantrips; guidance, mage hand
level 1; expeditious retreat, longstrider
level 2; misty step, vortex warp
level 3; thunder step, gaseous form
level 4; dimension door, find greater steed
level 5; passwall, teleportation circle

Greenseer;
cantrips; primal savagery, thorn whip
level 1; entangle, fog cloud
level 2; spike growth, pass without trace
level 3; plant growth, summon fey
level 4; guardian of nature, summon elemental
level 5; insect plague, wrath of nature

Pyromancer;
cantrips; firebolt, greenflame blade
level 1; burning hands, hellish rebuke
level 2; scorching ray, heat metal
level 3; fireball, ashardalon's stride
level 4; fireshield(fire), summon elemental(fire)
level 5; immolation, summon draconic spirit(fire)

Mindbender:
cantrips; friends, mind sliver
level 1; charm person, dissonant whispers
level 2; hold person, suggestion
level 3; enemies abound, fear
level 4; charm monster, phantasmal killer
level 5; dominate person, modify memory

Illusionist;
cantrips; message, minor image
level 1; disguise self, minor image
level 2; invisibility, mirror image
level 3; hypnotic patter, major image
level 4; greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
level 5; dream, seeming

Defender;
cantrips; bladeward, sword burst
level 1; absorb elements, armor of agathys
level 2; aid, blur
level 3; counterspell, dispel magic
level 4; banishment, freedom of movement
level 5; bigbies hand, dispel good and evil

While I agree that a single caster could be made (though it would create a lack of diversity between casters that we currently have) I don't agree on using the sorcerer's spells known for it. I think for a lot of wizard players, collecting spells is part of rhe experience. For druid and cleric players, changing your load out to prepare for the adventure ahead is a part of the experience. Both of these might be a small part, but I still feel like they're an important part.

cbwjm said:

While I agree that a single caster could be made (though it would create a lack of diversity between casters that we currently have) I don't agree on using the sorcerer's spells known for it. I think for a lot of wizard players, collecting spells is part of rhe experience. For druid and cleric players, changing your load out to prepare for the adventure ahead is a part of the experience. Both of these might be a small part, but I still feel like they're an important part.

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I think that level of versatility is a bit too much.
maybe you could have a spell book for ritual spells, similar to the feat. for collecting purposes.

you could write your spells known that are rituals into the book to be casted as rituals.

and you can pick a focus of the caster, that would give you extra 10 spells by 9th level and 2 extra cantrips.

TheSword said:

Nevertheless it’s really important that to note there are ways for fighters to do the majority of those things right now in the game. Fighters, rogues, rangers, paladins. This is not about fighting characters not being able to things things it’s about the package they’re wrapped up in.

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and the package they're wrapped up in is important for a non-negligible amount of people, do you have the right to dismiss their preferences?

James Gasik said:

Sure, but in a party without a Thieves' Tool user, you'd be making just as much noise and taking a lot longer to bash down the locked door!

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This is true. As a general rule, I don't make my players roll for anything if they can just keep rerolling until they succeed. So for a regular door, I'm not going to make the PCs roll to break it down. If it's a fortified door specifically designed to keep angry people out, I'll have the PC roll to break it down, and since I don't let players spam rerolls until successful, failing means they're done trying to break in unless they find some new, novel way to approach the problem. Knock would allow the party to bypass that door. They don't have to rely on making a roll and hoping they can beat the DC.

CreamCloud0 said:

and the package they're wrapped up in is important for a non-negligible amount of people, do you have the right to dismiss their preferences?

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They weren’t dismissed. I just pointed out the irony in asking for something that was already in the game. Playable now. They’re quite capable of making their point irrespective of mine.