D&D General What Is D&D Generally Bad At That You Wish It Was Better At?

GrimCo said:

Might be. But i'm going by pure power level here. There was significant increase in character power and durability from 2ed to 3ed. More hp due to 1st level max and bonus from con ( in 3ed, with 12 con you get +1 hep, while in 2ed you needed 15 in con for +1 and only fighters benefited from con higher than 16 for more hp, everyone else got +2, while in 3e everyone gets +2/+3/+4). Also, dex gives more AC and it kicks in earlier ( 12 gives +1, while it was 15 for +1). Harder to hit, more hp, more abilities, more spells ( 0 level utilities 3 times per day means something), half casters getting stronger spells and spellcasting earlier( paladin got it at level 9, ranger level 8 in 2ed, in 3ed they can cast spells at level 4), more attacks. More capable and stronger overall. PF1 (or 3.75 as we called it) introduced at will cantrips and raised power level even higher.

With more codified character abilities, game shifted from skilled player to skilled character.

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Just one thing about the Dex/AC thing- don't forget that while Dex does kick in faster in 3e, the bonus to AC was limited by armor worn, which wasn't an issue in AD&D. So a character in plate with 18 Dex in AD&D has an AC of -2 (equivalent to 22) and the same character in 3e has an AC of 19. Also, the monsters all got stronger too, since they now had ability scores as well, and there was significant hit point inflation.

Add to that the fact that spells did pretty much the same damage they did in AD&D despite the inflation of enemy hit points, and the fact that fighting classes got hit with the nerf bat with regards to multiple attacks now suffering incremental to hit penalties, and weapon specialization for Fighters really got hit hard- you went from a 1st-level Fighter in 2e who could, with Two-Weapon Style Specialization from Complete Fighter's Handbook dual wield two long swords as as specialist making 5/2 attacks per turn without any penalty to one that could make 2 attacks per turn at -4/-4.*

*And I'm not even getting into the Player's Option stuff, compared to which, 3e characters got massive nerfs!

So it wasn't all roses for player characters with the new millenium. The real problems you saw was that the game's designers thought the player base would keep playing the same way as they had in 2e- and they had inadvertently opened up the game for new ways to play. Like casters focusing not on damage, but save or suck/save or die spells, self-buffing to make themselves stronger than any non-caster, and making Feats way better for casters than non-casters.

TwoSix said:

Our recollections differ, then. Even in the few cases where high skill checks could obviate challenges, those checks were generally augmented with copious amounts of magic.

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Well maybe. I mean, Skill Focus for +3, the various +2/+2 Feats, +2 synergy bonuses for related skills- you could get pretty impressive checks early on if you cared to. I remember playing a Druid in a game where the DM really wanted to stress exploration challenges, and thanks to the built-in +2 to Nature and Survival checks from just being a Druid (Nature Sense), I was trivially foraging for food to supply the whole party each day (who needs Goodberry?) and overcoming most of the "survive in wilderness/don't get lost" checks. Further, as an Elf (+2 Listen and Spot built-in), and the fact I was proficient in those Skills and had a Wisdom focus, meant I was noticing most everything that wasn't a Stealth-focused monster. Oh and that wasn't even taking into account my Animal Companion's Scent ability, which drove my DM up the wall, lol- turns out most Stealth-based monsters don't have any particular way to cover up their scents!

And that was just me, you should have seen what our Rogue was getting up to, with a backpack stuffed full of Masterwork Tools!

James Gasik said:

Well maybe. I mean, Skill Focus for +3, the various +2/+2 Feats, +2 synergy bonuses for related skills- you could get pretty impressive checks early on if you cared to. I remember playing a Druid in a game where the DM really wanted to stress exploration challenges, and thanks to the built-in +2 to Nature and Survival checks from just being a Druid (Nature Sense), I was trivially foraging for food to supply the whole party each day (who needs Goodberry?) and overcoming most of the "survive in wilderness/don't get lost" checks. Further, as an Elf (+2 Listen and Spot built-in), and the fact I was proficient in those Skills and had a Wisdom focus, meant I was noticing most everything that wasn't a Stealth-focused monster. Oh and that wasn't even taking into account my Animal Companion's Scent ability, which drove my DM up the wall, lol- turns out most Stealth-based monsters don't have any particular way to cover up their scents!

And that was just me, you should have seen what our Rogue was getting up to, with a backpack stuffed full of Masterwork Tools!

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I feel like we need that thread again where we argue about whether having skills obviates needing them...

Reynard said:

I feel like we need that thread again where we argue about whether having skills obviates needing them...

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I was just saying, in a system that allows you to focus on having high skill checks, you can trivialize checks that don't inherently scale.

Heck, with how easy it is to get Expertise in 2024, it's not hard to get insane skill checks, where anything lower than DC 20 isn't even worth talking about (25 in the case of 7th level Rogues). Advantage is super easy to get as well, either from Help Actions or Tool Proficiency.

TwoSix said:

Our recollections differ, then. Even in the few cases where high skill checks could obviate challenges, those checks were generally augmented with copious amounts of magic.

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It was possible to do that, but it was substantially possible because the DCs weren’t necessarily that high for relatively mundane accomplishments. Add magic, and sure, those DCs could be blown away.

Reynard said:

None of thsoe things ahve anything to do with the inherent difficulty of fighting through the wilderness to the monster's lair -- you know, the kind of things you see in the myths, legends, a literature that are the foundation of fantasy adventure. Heroes should be impressive BECAUSE they can do the very hard thing like climb a mountain no one else has climbed before.

But you are right, 5E is the MCU version of D&D and the design only cares about your next big fight.

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Applies to 3E and 4E as well.

O depleted my PCs in C&C in exploration mode and same tricks will work in 2E which I'm working on.

3E has an * depending on party. You could do it if they're not aware of wands of clw.

Overnight healing and easy mode healing essentially killed exploration beyond level 1 and 2 in 5E and from level 1 in 4E.

5E you would need dispel magic and hit them whole they're resting negating the long rest.

Cure light wounds 1d8, no 2nd level cure, cure serious 2d8+1, 1-3 hp overnight and 15 minutes to recover each spell per level allows you to deplete PCs over several rests 1d8 damage at a time.

Context running OSR/5E games same week. Not nostalgia.

I may be most experienced DM here for that sort if thing as I have done hex crawls through 3E,Pathfinder and 5E along with older editions and clones.

Micah Sweet said:

These things happen. No one is guaranteed success.

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No one's arguing it should be.

Zardnaar said:

Applies to 3E and 4E as well.

O depleted my PCs in C&C in exploration mode and same tricks will work in 2E which I'm working on.

3E has an * depending on party. You could do it if they're not aware of wands of clw.

Overnight healing and easy mode healing essentially killed exploration beyond level 1 and 2 in 5E and from level 1 in 4E.

5E you would need dispel magic and hit them whole they're resting negating the long rest.

Cure light wounds 1d8, no 2nd level cure, cure serious 2d8+1, 1-3 hp overnight and 15 minutes to recover each spell per level allows you to deplete PCs over several rests 1d8 damage at a time.

Context running OSR/5E games same week. Not nostalgia.

I may be most experienced DM here for that sort if thing as I have done hex crawls through 3E,Pathfinder and 5E along with older editions and clones.

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Couldnt you just use the optional rest rules for 5e in the DMG?

Imaro said:

No one's arguing it should be.

Couldnt you just use the optional rest rules for 5e in the DMG?

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I like the haven rules in Level Up.

GrimCo said:

Sure, you can do it for shits and giggles But it drastically changes tone of the game from heroic to comedic.

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oh, absolutely

GrimCo said:

Sure, you can do it for shits and giggles But it drastically changes tone of the game from heroic to comedic.

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Which might be a good thing. If we're not there to laugh at least some of the time, what's the point?

GrimCo said:

Point is, mundane things are low level stuff and have been since 3e came out some 25 years ago.

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The TSR editions had some spells-items-etc. that could override environmental challenges but you had to either have the right class(es) of character in the group or have the right magic item(s) on hand. Without those, even the highest-level parties could get lost in a forest or freeze in the arctic or end up becalmed and starving at sea...or catch a cold and feel lousy for a while.

WotC took this "let's ignore environmental challenges" idea and dialled it up considerably....

GrimCo said:

Even in 3e, create water and purify food and water were 0 level cleric spells. Know direction is 0 level druid. By the level 4-5, you have rope trick, tiny hut, create food and water, goodberry, remove disease/poison/curse/blindness/paralysis, water breathing, water walking. 3.5 added Endure elements as 1st lv spell to whole lot of spell lists (cleric,druid, ranger, paladin, sorcerer, wizard). Standard party has enough tools among themselves to negate them pretty easy using magic.

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....as you very neatly point out here. Now, even the lowest-level parties have relatively easy access to environment-negating spells and effects; and while some might like that they went this direction, I do not.