GM fiat - an illustration


log in or register to remove this ad

I can’t really weigh in on @bloodtide ‘s style without knowing more about it and talking to blood tide. On whether there is middle ground here, I think there is always middle ground in an rpg. I do think the GM has ultimate say, and can overuse the rules. But I think that authority relies of player trust. So if the GM is regularly angering the players with these actions, it isn’t going to work. I also do think one element of GM is providing challenge. I don’t think anything I have suggested is putting out an easy button. PCs die, characters get maimed, etc. it isn’t about giving players outcomes or story they want, it is about giving them a fair shake in everything, building trust, holding myself accountable to this idea of fairness and impartiality, hearing out what the players are trying to do and not simply rejecting it because I want things to go in an another direction, etc

I mean... just read his posts in this thread to get what he does.
 

Well, you don't find it in any other game, right?

Mother May I? is a game that works that way which springs immediately to mind.

It is all about the perspective.

I find any perspective that relies on the GM's ability to thwart the players at every turn to be a rather poor perspective.

But having a game rule that limits them to three random attacks is good?

Yes, because it removes the decision of lethality from the GM and puts it onto a game process.

Not really. A GM can just change things.

Not in all games. I certainly don't approach RPGs that way, even when I run a game like 5e D&D.

Well, "knows better" does not really fit.

But sure I utterly don't care about anything any fool had printed in a book. If I like it I might use it, if not I will flick the book off the table and laugh. I sure don't put "the designers" on some pedestal and think every typed word is sacrosanct.

And I have never cared about what all the other GMs or think.

And I don't agree with many players, and sure don't think that I "work for them" as their personal DM.

I do what I think makes for a good fun game. And I have a long track record, and plenty of fans. And plenty of hate filled opponents, but you can't make everyone happy....

I would think some amount of self-reflection would likely do you some good.
 

Not necessarily. There are rules out there for this stuff, and prep you can do, if you want.
I'm 100% with @AbdulAlhazred here. When I was GMing the Rolemaster game I mentioned upthread, by mid-to-upper levels the PCs had connections and enemies spread across the Greyhawk map. Those NPCs included all sorts of spell-users, with access to all sorts of magical abilities. Does their one nemesis hire a Nightblade (magic-using assassin)? Does that Nightblade know the general parameters of Waiting Illusion? Are they concentrating on an appropriate detection spell as they approach the PCs?

Prep that simply authors fictional facts can't handle all this: how many assassins are available for hire; how much the NPC rival is willing to spend to hire them; etc. Either the GM makes a call, or the GM outsources the decision-making to some sort of procedure - generally a roll-based one.
 

I'm 100% with @AbdulAlhazred here. When I was GMing the Rolemaster game I mentioned upthread, by mid-to-upper levels the PCs had connections and enemies spread across the Greyhawk map. Those NPCs included all sorts of spell-users, with access to all sorts of magical abilities. Does their one nemesis hire a Nightblade (magic-using assassin)? Does that Nightblade know the general parameters of Waiting Illusion? Are they concentrating on an appropriate detection spell as they approach the PCs?

Prep that simply authors fictional facts can't handle all this: how many assassins are available for hire; how much the NPC rival is willing to spend to hire them; etc. Either the GM makes a call, or the GM outsources the decision-making to some sort of procedure - generally a roll-based one.
Generally I do one or the other. The more involved it would be to get it right by setting logic, the more I rely on rolls and rules modules (in or out of the core system I'm running) to handle the situation. I make a call when I have to but always with setting logic at or close to top of mind.
 


You're turning over a ton of control to randomness in this hypothetical challenge focused system. The appeal of the alarm spell is precisely that it does not interact with randomness in that way; it requires specific countermeasures, and if the opposition doesn't use them, they fail.

<snip>

Obviously, it would be ideal to have the hunter portrayed by a player separate from the GM, so you can actually put the NPC/PC choices into direct conflict to see what occurs, but that's impractical for most modes of play, so we have the GM simulate competition. It's imperfect, but preferable if you want players to be able to keep discriminating between strategies in unfolding situations.
I don't find the notion of simulating competition very clear. That just seems to be one particular way of not engaging in competition.

Let me give you some examples of what I mean:
  • For instance I like to rotate the type of attacks done by a beholder and use his whole gamut of eye stalks in the encounter - so if the die roll roll reflects sequential eye stalks from round to round, I may change this (DM fiat).
  • I may roll on the trinket or magical item table and may not agree with the item found for the player. I may then ask the player to reroll (I let the players roll).
  • I may roll on the random encounter table and it may not make sense or be too similar to something previously encountered. I may decide at that moment to use something that caught my eye (DM fiat) or decide to reroll.
  • I will use DM fiat based on in-game knowledge to determine which PC will be attacked by which opponent, and ignore randomisation with dice.
On your first and last points - the last time I had to think about those sorts of things in a regular and systematic way was GMing 4e D&D. I would make decisions about what my NPCs and monsters did in com bat based on a mixture of what seemed fun, what seemed likely to put pressure on the players, and what seemed to make sense for the NPC/creature at hand.

I relied on the game's monster design rules and encounter building rules to give me an assurance as to the likely "heft" of my overall encounter "budget". The game worked in that respect.

Your second and third points are about content introduction. When the tables in Torchbearer 2e tell me to roll to see who/what is encountered, I roll. When they tell me to decide, I decide. This is part of how the game is built. For treasure, I follow the game's instructions, which are to use a mixture of rolls and placement. (When converting a D&D module, I filter the D&D treasure through a sense of what the TB2e tables permit for like encounters/rooms.)

In Burning Wheel or Prince Valiant, by comparison, I don't use rolls for content introduction. They're simply not part of those games. Except one time in Burning Wheel the players failed a roll while fleeing through the city at night, and I decided that the PCs encountered the night watch. And as I happened to have a copy of the Appendix C DMG city/town encounter matrix on me, I rolled the 3d4 (or whatever it is) to see how many members of the watch they encountered. But that was mostly for colour - there was no real prospect of the PCs undertaking an action which would depend for its success on the number of NPCs.
 

On your first and last points - the last time I had to think about those sorts of things in a regular and systematic way was GMing 4e D&D. I would make decisions about what my NPCs and monsters did in com bat based on a mixture of what seemed fun, what seemed likely to put pressure on the players, and what seemed to make sense for the NPC/creature at hand.
That is how I run things in D&D, no matter the edition.
I relied on the game's monster design rules and encounter building rules to give me an assurance as to the likely "heft" of my overall encounter "budget". The game worked in that respect.
5e does not have a very good system for encounter budget, particularly at higher levels, so I do not rely on it.
I do for my own amusement calculate the budget anyways to see perhaps if I can identify a pattern that would help me fix the published design (at least so it works for my games).
Your second and third points are about content introduction. When the tables in Torchbearer 2e tell me to roll to see who/what is encountered, I roll. When they tell me to decide, I decide. This is part of how the game is built. For treasure, I follow the game's instructions, which are to use a mixture of rolls and placement. (When converting a D&D module, I filter the D&D treasure through a sense of what the TB2e tables permit for like encounters/rooms.)
D&D treasure tables are a rather mixed bag so I make the necessary adjustment when I feel it is best for the campaign.
I'm not infallible nor do I claim to excel in creativity - but I do my best. I have sometimes offered the players the opportunity to provide input on something rolled - drawing on their creativity for assistance.
Do I have final say, I suppose yes by permission of the players. But when I'm opening up the creative process to the table - I'm doing so in the spirit of negotiation, not as a person of authority.
 

The problem, or the observation at least, is that a determination of how smart the hunter is, etc. etc. etc., as well as the fine details of the fiction, is largely undetermined. At the point where it's relavent the GM has to come up with it. And the notion that there's a right answer, in terms of fairness or whatever criteria, is dubious IME.
There is no right answer: just the answer the DM says is right. This is why a RPG session is called the DM's game: they get to decide what is right or wrong or anything else.
So, randomized inputs seem like a decent response and have been fairly common for ages. Taking it a step further what's wrong with randomized outcomes? TB2e just says the GM picks a strategy and that gets assessed along with some dice to say how effective the players plan was
I agree that randomized inputs are great aid for the game. But not having them rule or control the whole game.

My experience is simply that attempting to do that in all the possible dimensions of play is an impossible task. 95% of the time this kind of stuff is unknown.
It is no where near impossible as great DMs do it all the time. Creating deep details is a skill of great DMs. Though for the casual DM, one who just plays the game for a couple minutes just like the players, will see such creation of detail impossible. The more classic, traditional DM works on the game outside of the social game play, and ever often takes up several hours of work on the game.

And this does not even touch improv. Plenty of great DMs can make up a ton of detail in very short amounts of time

I mean... just read his posts in this thread to get what he does.
Or ask some pointed questions......
 

I would say that you are aware of A threat, but not necessarily THE threat.
You are literally made aware of the threat as it set off the alarm spell. Further, once you are not surprised, nothing else can surprise you during the combat, so any further enemies that you are unaware of outside of the alarm range, can't surprise you. Sage Advice also clarifies that to be surprised, you have to be caught off guard, which you cannot be since the alarm spell has alerted you and you are on guard from that moment onward.
 

Remove ads

Top