GM fiat - an illustration

As an aside, for whatever reason, this didn't come up in my mentions. Headscratcher.

I think we're on the same page here. What you've written above is pretty much where I land. However, what I would say is the following:

* A game that features challenge-based priorities as its apex interests should be situating its GM so that they are (a) compelled to generate interesting, multivariate decision-points at each consequential moment of play (which should be most moments of play) and then (b) arming them via system to bring about those same complex and provocative decision-points. Finally, if the game is interested in a strategic layer (many challenge-based games very much do, but not all), then (c) the throughline of play should reflect that. Put another way, the moments of decision-points should stack in a coherent way, via the system and the GM working thoughtfully in concert, to create viable opposition to player goals. At the same time, the player's longterm considerations, decisions, mustering of means and management of system-levers should be able to be qualitatively evaluated as more or less skillful in gamestate management (in contrast with an alternative regime of play).

* To take your specific example, it is very much preferrable to me when it comes to challenge-based priorities for a system to eschew GM decision-making when it comes to the very important question of whether the gamestate is positively impacted (positive here meaning player's move made is successful and that success feeds into subsquent situation/obstacle-framing) which then feeds into the framing of subsequent play. So we need to find out if the PC Wizard's Alarm spell at the opening of the dungeon is foiled or triggered by NPC Henrik Headhunter? Cool. Here is some (much more desirable to GM fiat in this case) scheme of systemitized resolution:

GM: "Alright Wizard, I need you to set the value of any vs test for your Alarm. Roll Arcana."

Player: <Wizard player feels like this is important so the muster some currency, spending it in a wager that the dice pool amplification will in turn amplify their Alarm spell> "I got 5 successes! I pour half of my vial of quicksilver and pouch of pixie dust (perhaps that is 2 out of 4 supplies) carefully along the periphery of my Alarm spell, enriching the magical field with those arcane contents!"

GM: One of the obstacles here is Henrik Headhunter's pursuit. Now we resolve Henrik's portion of the vs test. GM rolls Henrik's Dungeoneer 8 (rather than Hunter 10 as, let us say that Dungeoneer is the overcoming of traps laid rather than stalking and trapping) vs those 5 successes. GM doesn't like the odds. Henrik is capable and it would be desirable for him to maintain his stalking status of which the Wizard's Alarm going off would foil (and perhaps harm Henrik in some way, pending how Alarm is written in this prospective system). The GM decides to muster and spends some of Henrik's limited currency for the test; gains 2 more dice for 10.

Henrik generates enough successes to foil the Alarm. Now, rather than asserting the conflicting fictions (who is more capable, the Wizard or Henrik?) and subordinating the question of control over the gamestate (the question of gamestate control is the central piece of challenge-based play afterall) to GM discretion, we spend some of Henrik's future resources (thereby lowering his capabilities in conflicts to follow) to help enshrine the fiction that (a) Henrik is just as shrewd and capable as we imagined him while (b) managing to maintain the integrity of the question of gamestate control via authentically resolving this collision by way of system and participant decision-making around the tactical and strategic layer of play.

Circling back, maybe the system isn't particularly robust such that it can handle all of the above in such a fashion. Maybe it requires GM discretion. Ok. But the reality is, that is a decision around gamestate impact/control that the GM is asserting via fiat when an alternative model that doesn't subordinate that very important question of gamestate impact/control (which doesn't just impact this particular moment of player, but reverberates forward into subsequent play) might be available. I think it is trivially true that integrity of challenge-based priorities is far better maintained one way vs the other. I'm not saying resolution via GM fiat utterly cripples the integrity of challenge-based priorities, but...it definitely harms it by contrast at a minimum. Further, the more you stack these moments, the more harm to the integrity of the question of gamestate control you're generating.

The same phenomena can be seen in sports where a referee's judgement call (like the Strike/Ball call in a 1-1 count with runners on base in Baseball or a Defensive Holding call on 3rd and 7 in American Football) in a particularly gamestate-sensitive situation will reverberate into future gamestates and the more you stack those, the less "the game is being decided on the field" as the adage goes.

Hopefully that makes sense and clarifies our overlap and the potential daylight between us.
You're turning over a ton of control to randomness in this hypothetical challenge focused system. The appeal of the alarm spell is precisely that it does not interact with randomness in that way; it requires specific countermeasures, and if the opposition doesn't use them, they fail. The analogous situation (and presumably desired feeling you're trying to evoke) in a competitive game might be something like the wizard player spending currency to search their deck and then holding an alarm card in hand, that will cancel any ambush subtype card the hunter plays. Rolling 2 modified dice pools to derive the resulting fiction can't produce that kind of byplay except in retrospective retelling. It's a different kind of artificiality than what you're critiquing in "fiat" here, but it's no less a problem.

The easy test is to ask "what would a worse wizard have done here?" And then to explain why it is a worse line of play, and why it's stable that such a line would be worse regardless of how the random breaks went.

Obviously, it would be ideal to have the hunter portrayed by a player separate from the GM, so you can actually put the NPC/PC choices into direct conflict to see what occurs, but that's impractical for most modes of play, so we have the GM simulate competition. It's imperfect, but preferable if you want players to be able to keep discriminating between strategies in unfolding situations.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm saying if the DM is deciding in the moment (as opposed to via prep prior to play) to disregard the player's prophylactic actions, they are being a jerk. Stuff like that should IMO be determined either as part of prep (so it's not directly responding to PC action) or determined via random roll (so the DM is not making a specific choice to screw them over and letting fate decide). The player, for their part, should IMO trust in that process, of which they should been aware since session 0.
What constitutes this? Is it fair if I decide the PC's enemy hired a master Ninja(who would clearly be cognizant of alarm spells)? Does said GM need to have constructed a list of ninjas and their fees, and the quantity of gold available to the enemy ahead of time? Is it unfair if all of the above is not determined ahead of time? Does fairness also demand that the characters be informed of the possibility? It's not a simple matter!
 

I don't know how unique it is to watch a GM, unconstrained by any rules and with unlimited fictional resources, shoot down player ideas.
Well, you don't find it in any other game, right?
Hopefully, it becomes increasingly so. But it's also not brilliant. It's about the lowest form of GMing I can imagine.
It is all about the perspective.
Xenomorphs in the Aliens movies often do odd things at times. They're not exactly understandable... so having them behave in unexpected ways mimics that. It also allows the game to function in a fairer way.
But having a game rule that limits them to three random attacks is good?
If you were to GM it, and ignore that rule in favor of deciding what happens by fiat, what happens is the Xenomorph simply uses its deadliest attack every time. This goes against the game's design. There's a reason that restriction is in place. Removing it has impacts that need to be addressed in some other way.
Not really. A GM can just change things.
Tagging @Micah Sweet , @Maxperson , and @Bedrockgames ... I know you guys aren't anywhere as extreme as bloodtide here... but this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. A GM who does whatever he wants because he thinks he knows better than the designers, other GMs, and all his players. I don't think things need to get even remotely close to this extreme for this to be a consideration in how a game functions.
Well, "knows better" does not really fit.

But sure I utterly don't care about anything any fool had printed in a book. If I like it I might use it, if not I will flick the book off the table and laugh. I sure don't put "the designers" on some pedestal and think every typed word is sacrosanct.

And I have never cared about what all the other GMs or think.

And I don't agree with many players, and sure don't think that I "work for them" as their personal DM.

I do what I think makes for a good fun game. And I have a long track record, and plenty of fans. And plenty of hate filled opponents, but you can't make everyone happy....
 

What constitutes this? Is it fair if I decide the PC's enemy hired a master Ninja(who would clearly be cognizant of alarm spells)? Does said GM need to have constructed a list of ninjas and their fees, and the quantity of gold available to the enemy ahead of time? Is it unfair if all of the above is not determined ahead of time? Does fairness also demand that the characters be informed of the possibility? It's not a simple matter!
When did you decide the PC's enemy hired a master ninja? Before the PCs decided to cast Alarm, or after?

And yes, IMO ideally the DM should know ahead of time details about the sort of folks that could be hired.
 

You're turning over a ton of control to randomness in this hypothetical challenge focused system. The appeal of the alarm spell is precisely that it does not interact with randomness in that way; it requires specific countermeasures, and if the opposition doesn't use them, they fail. The analogous situation (and presumably desired feeling you're trying to evoke) in a competitive game might be something like the wizard player spending currency to search their deck and then holding an alarm card in hand, that will cancel any ambush subtype card the hunter plays. Rolling 2 modified dice pools to derive the resulting fiction can't produce that kind of byplay except in retrospective retelling. It's a different kind of artificiality than what you're critiquing in "fiat" here, but it's no less a problem.

I would argue that the Alarm spell, with its origins in earlier versions of D&D, absolutely does interact with random elements. A large part of its application is to potentially address random encounters that may happen when PCs are in camp. It can be used for other reasons, too, but that's a big part of how it's being discussed here.

If a GM is rolling for random encounters, and rolling for those encounters may be... then the randomness of those results absolutely impact the efficacy of the Alarm spell. If an NPC with the ability to detect or bypass magic comes up, that's a potentially big deal. If the results indicate creatures with no ranged attacks, they may have a harder time avoiding the Alarm to attack the camp. And so on.

The randomness makes it a matter of the dice instead of the GM simply deciding all these different things themselves.

Obviously, it would be ideal to have the hunter portrayed by a player separate from the GM, so you can actually put the NPC/PC choices into direct conflict to see what occurs, but that's impractical for most modes of play, so we have the GM simulate competition. It's imperfect, but preferable if you want players to be able to keep discriminating between strategies in unfolding situations.

I think you're close to things here... the dice can substitute for another player. They take the decision out of the GM's hands, so whatever happens is a result of the game processes, rather than just because the GM has decided that's what "makes sense" or "will be fun".
 

As an aside, for whatever reason, this didn't come up in my mentions. Headscratcher.

I think we're on the same page here. What you've written above is pretty much where I land. However, what I would say is the following:

* To take your specific example, it is very much preferrable to me when it comes to challenge-based priorities for a system to eschew GM decision-making when it comes to the very important question of whether the gamestate is positively impacted (positive here meaning player's move made is successful and that success feeds into subsquent situation/obstacle-framing) which then feeds into the framing of subsequent play.


Circling back, maybe the system isn't particularly robust such that it can handle all of the above in such a fashion. Maybe it requires GM discretion. Ok. But the reality is, that is a decision around gamestate impact/control that the GM is asserting via fiat when an alternative model that doesn't subordinate that very important question of gamestate impact/control (which doesn't just impact this particular moment of player, but reverberates forward into subsequent play) might be available. I think it is trivially true that integrity of challenge-based priorities is far better maintained one way vs the other. I'm not saying resolution via GM fiat utterly cripples the integrity of challenge-based priorities, but...it definitely harms it by contrast at a minimum. Further, the more you stack these moments, the more harm to the integrity of the question of gamestate control you're generating.

Yeah that's a good example. Where we differ is that I see fiat as the reason to play an RPG, Or put another way, I want people to have to make judgements about fictional positioning without recourse to system guaranteed position (reliable currency for the theory heads out there)

That being said. I don't engage in challenge based play so I can only give second hand accounts of the people I've spoken to and they've tended to hold fiat based resolution up as the gold standard, central feature of play.

@Pedantic gives some good reasons why but when I've spoken to say Sandra (the author of the blorb stuff) she's far more extreme than even that.
 

Tagging @Micah Sweet , @Maxperson , and @Bedrockgames ... I know you guys aren't anywhere as extreme as bloodtide here... but this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. A GM who does whatever he wants because he thinks he knows better than the designers, other GMs, and all his players. I don't think things need to get even remotely close to this extreme for this to be a consideration in how a game functions.
I can’t really weigh in on @bloodtide ‘s style without knowing more about it and talking to blood tide. On whether there is middle ground here, I think there is always middle ground in an rpg. I do think the GM has ultimate say, and can overuse the rules. But I think that authority relies of player trust. So if the GM is regularly angering the players with these actions, it isn’t going to work. I also do think one element of GM is providing challenge. I don’t think anything I have suggested is putting out an easy button. PCs die, characters get maimed, etc. it isn’t about giving players outcomes or story they want, it is about giving them a fair shake in everything, building trust, holding myself accountable to this idea of fairness and impartiality, hearing out what the players are trying to do and not simply rejecting it because I want things to go in an another direction, etc
 


You're turning over a ton of control to randomness in this hypothetical challenge focused system. The appeal of the alarm spell is precisely that it does not interact with randomness in that way; it requires specific countermeasures, and if the opposition doesn't use them, they fail. The analogous situation (and presumably desired feeling you're trying to evoke) in a competitive game might be something like the wizard player spending currency to search their deck and then holding an alarm card in hand, that will cancel any ambush subtype card the hunter plays. Rolling 2 modified dice pools to derive the resulting fiction can't produce that kind of byplay except in retrospective retelling. It's a different kind of artificiality than what you're critiquing in "fiat" here, but it's no less a problem.

The easy test is to ask "what would a worse wizard have done here?" And then to explain why it is a worse line of play, and why it's stable that such a line would be worse regardless of how the random breaks went.

Obviously, it would be ideal to have the hunter portrayed by a player separate from the GM, so you can actually put the NPC/PC choices into direct conflict to see what occurs, but that's impractical for most modes of play, so we have the GM simulate competition. It's imperfect, but preferable if you want players to be able to keep discriminating between strategies in unfolding situations.
The problem, or the observation at least, is that a determination of how smart the hunter is, etc. etc. etc., as well as the fine details of the fiction, is largely undetermined. At the point where it's relavent the GM has to come up with it. And the notion that there's a right answer, in terms of fairness or whatever criteria, is dubious IME.

So, randomized inputs seem like a decent response and have been fairly common for ages. Taking it a step further what's wrong with randomized outcomes? TB2e just says the GM picks a strategy and that gets assessed along with some dice to say how effective the players plan was
 

When did you decide the PC's enemy hired a master ninja? Before the PCs decided to cast Alarm, or after?

And yes, IMO ideally the DM should know ahead of time details about the sort of folks that could be hired.
My experience is simply that attempting to do that in all the possible dimensions of play is an impossible task. 95% of the time this kind of stuff is unknown.
 

Remove ads

Top