Gygax's Dungeon Design

I add my thoughts to this discussion: Gygax is, in my very personal opinion, very overrated. He has been very good at appropriating the work of others and ‘selling’ it as his own work. His writing style is mediocre, and the proof are the Gord series, novels for teenagers that add nothing new, special or innovative to the fantasy genre. On the contrary, they are rather banal stories in which the reader already knows exactly how the plot develops.

On the level of manual writing, perhaps it is even worse: AD&D 1ed is a chaotic and confusing mass of information, often scattered here and there in the text in an absolutely incomprehensible way, with passages that are often cryptic or contradictory. Still on a personal level (I reiterate that this is my view), the only aspect to be saved from the AD&D 1ed manuals are the tables in the DM Manual. Zeb Cook and Steve Winter have made the rules much, much more comprehensible, harmonious and sorted with AD&D 2ed, publishing manuals that are easy to consult and where you can find what you are looking for without having to scroll through all the pages hoping to locate what you want.

Finally, as far as the writing of the adventure modules is concerned, here too one finds excellent ideas implemented in a way that is questionable to say the least. The adventures written by Gygax are never ready to use, but require a considerable amount of work on the part of the DMs to make them usable and fun for the players to play. Again, I think there have been (and are) much better designers than Gygax.

Having said that, Gygax played a huge role in the development of this hobby, but on the same level as others starting with Arneson, of whom we often forget all about, not to mention those who came before the two of them and had already laid the foundations that Gygax later took up and expanded (but not alone!!). Gygax was a bad designer, while he had the inventiveness and imagination to create settings and stories, and above all he had the vision for a project that was embryonic at the time. This is precisely why he was able to ‘take’ credit beyond what actually happened and create his own myth.
 

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Zeb Cook. 😁
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Compared to who in the hobby (that he created)?
Dave Arneson, Zeb Cook, Ron Edwards, Baker, Stoltz, Jackson, Stafford, Barker just to name some...
Gygax did not create this hobby. Gygax was, like many, a wargame player. He created Dungeons & Dragons thanks, and I repeat, to the ESSENTIAL contribution of Arneson who adapted the rulebook of Chainmail (a medieval miniatures game) to his world of Blackmoor. That was the start of TTRPGs as we understand them today. So it is a SHARED creation between at least two individuals, and not born from the mind of just one man.
As I said, Gygax had the great merit of realising the potential of this new market and believing in it.
Gygax was a creative person, not a great designer. Or at least, he was definitely not good at explaining clearly what he meant when he wrote the rules.
 

Mz. Nasty!

Back to the topic, I always saw the dungeons a lot like how Pac-Man is played: get as much of the goodies as possible while avoiding threats as much as possible. Also when you compare something like Gary's Caves of Chaos to WotC's Wave Echo Cave (LMoP), there's clear differences. Mainly, newer dungeon designs seems more "compacted" or "congested" due to lacking the long corridors older dungeons had. That change makes avoiding unwanted encounters more difficult for PC parties. But, that's what WotC seems to want: more combat.

I like Gygax's use of diagonal passageways, empty spaces and transporters. I used a lot of trap doors and magical elevators myself, but I'm impatient. Gary's use of "Room-Labyrinths" and how he designed them is iconic, hence the term "Gygaxian Dungeon Design". Also, Gygax's 'Dungeon Geomorphs' were pretty cool for the time.
 

None of us are going to effect Gygax's legacy one bit. That said. His mechanics are not the best, but it was the mis-1970's and they work well enough to make an RPG that is style very very playable if you want run a game about treasure hunting in a fantasy world. Other's contributed, but there's a reason I'm not writing a long post about Arneson's dungeons (I have written a long review of Temple of the Frog ... but) - he didn't leave us much to work with, even if his focus on Braunstein style regional intrigue is great,

Now as to Gygax's dungeons.... His published work does not include especially large or complex maps, and his focus is not navigation. His original and home games may have used megadungeons, but we don't have any decent examples we can really ascribe to him. However, they are larger then many contemporary dungeons ... but of course serve an entirely different play style. The empty space found in older dungeons doesn't really work with modern systems (both Contemporary Traditional and many Post OSR ultralights) as there's no cost to exploration, so all they accomplish is wasting everyone's time. Nor are these sort of dungeons especially unique to Gygax - the style is common to most early dungeon design.
 

Now as to Gygax's dungeons.... His published work does not include especially large or complex maps, and his focus is not navigation. His original and home games may have used megadungeons, but we don't have any decent examples we can really ascribe to him. However, they are larger then many contemporary dungeons ... but of course serve an entirely different play style. The empty space found in older dungeons doesn't really work with modern systems (both Contemporary Traditional and many Post OSR ultralights) as there's no cost to exploration, so all they accomplish is wasting everyone's time. Nor are these sort of dungeons especially unique to Gygax - the style is common to most early dungeon design.
Looks like this thread is just here to marginalize Gygax and his ttrpg legacy. Can you think of anything Gary contributed to dungeon design? I named a few things I recall from his earlier work. There's excellent discussions of design methods on Dragonfoot's site. Gygax created D&D and no one can take that from him no matter how hard they try 😎
 

Looks like this thread is just here to marginalize Gygax and his ttrpg legacy. Can you think of anything Gary contributed to dungeon design? I named a few things I recall from his earlier work. There's excellent discussions of design methods on Dragonfoot's site. Gygax created D&D and no one can take that from him no matter how hard they try 😎

What am I even supposed to do with this willful seeming misreading?

All I can say is ... the worst thing for Gygax's legacy, worse even then his approving remarks about Chivington, are his fanatical devotees. It's like arguing theology when the Jehovah's Witnesses ring your bell - except Witnesses are both more polite and slightly less dogmatic.
 

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