OSR Does "Old School" in OSR only apply to D&D?

Mannahnin said:

No? I guess that's a relative term, for me. Compared to stuff from the 70s? Sure, it's not.

But from the perspective of today's designs I'd certainly say it is. Particularly the ways in which the theme conflicts with kind of reflexive/unconsidered design. Like, there's no need for tables like this in a game which is trying to do what Vampire was ostensibly trying to do:

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If we are taling about design ethos, it is certainly not Old School. That's like putting nirvana on Classic Rock stations because it is old, even though it doesn't have a lot in common with Pink Floyd.

(Most) Games from the 80s and 90s fit into a design paradigm that embraced unnecessary complexity via over-design. This was probably because this was the period when desktop publishing got really good and and printing relatively accessible and cheap, and so there was a lot of experimentation going on. It is its own era and does both itself and Old School a disserve by conflating the two.

Reynard said:

If we are talling about design ethos, it is certainly not Old School. That's like putting nirvana on Classic Rock stations because it is old, even though it doesn't have a lot in common with Pink Floyd.

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I think this is a pretty useful analogy. Nirvana doesn't have a ton in common with Pink Floyd, but it's from the "last gasp" of album-oriented rock back when rock was still one of the dominant genres, and both belong to the time range which comprises Classic Rock nowadays.

Reynard said:

(Most) Games from the 80s and 90s fit into a design paradigm that embraced unnecessary complexity via over-design. This was probably because this was the period when desktop publishing got really good and and printing relatively accessible and cheap, and so there was a lot of experimentation going on. It is its own era and does both itself and Old School a disserve by conflating the two.

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I think we're just using the term Old School differently. Do you have a definition for your usage?

I'm using Old School as an umbrella term for any game, play style or culture which dates to "back in the day". And at this point, for me, V:tM definitely counts. I don't think it's just over-complexity, either. I think it's part of how it retains certain types of combat systems and "simulationist" mechanics because the design philosophy simply hadn't been examined enough and some unnecessary assumptions were still being held onto.

Classic and Trad are both more than 40 years old, now. Trying to call one of them "old school" and the other "new school" seems silly to me given that they're both from the first 20% of the existence of published tabletop RPGs.

I agree that it's worth recognizing V:tM as a standard bearer for some important changes in RPGs starting in the late 80s (I think Ars Magica was a precursor, of course), but I still think it's old school in a ton of ways.

Mannahnin said:

I'm using Old School as an umbrella term for any game, play style or culture which dates to "back in the day".

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I don't think that is a particularly useful "definition" and I don't think most people would use it. "Old School" is the "Golden Age" of TTRPGs (to use the comic book eras as a foundation for the metaphor). Sure, there is some quibbling about the start of the Silver Age, but no one would call Fantastic Four #1 a Golden Age comic book. Nor should anyone call Vampire: The Masquerade a Old School TTRPG.

Mannahnin said:

Yeah, I can see that. Although the ones I've seen have been more iterations on those older games rather than clones.

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I suppose. Though Cepheus Engine lead to Cepheus Deluxe.

Mannahnin said:

Yeah, I haven't seen that, and the idea is bizarre to me. If the game was published 30+ years ago how could it NOT be old school?

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As far as I can tell, because they're not D&D.

Thomas Shey said:

I suppose. Though Cepheus Engine lead to Cepheus Deluxe.



As far as I can tell, because they're not D&D.

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I am pretty sure for most OSR folks, only OD&D, AD&D pre-OA and B/X are "Old School"

I would love to see a world full of oWoD remixes.

Reynard said:

I don't think that is a particularly useful "definition" and I don't think most people would use it. "Old School" is the "Golden Age" of TTRPGs (to use the comic book eras as a foundation for the metaphor). Sure, there is some quibbling about the start of the Silver Age, but no one would call Fantastic Four #1 a Golden Age comic book. Nor should anyone call Vampire: The Masquerade a Old School TTRPG.

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I invite you, once again, to explain your criteria or definition.

I don't think golden age, silver age, etc. apply to RPGs in general, but I'd be interested to hear a case made. I think I've seen James Maliszewski apply them to different periods of TSR's history specifically.

When I first got onto Dragonsfoot 2nd ed AD&D was definitely not considered Old School D&D by that crew, but the consensus has shifted in the last 15 years or so from what I can tell.

I don't think it's useful or accurate to confine our use of the term Old School in referring to RPGs to the first 5 years/10% of their existence. Or one which excludes games which were, say, already trying for a Trad style even then.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

I would love to see a world full of oWoD remixes.

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This one sounds pretty cool.

Hilarious to think anyone could look at 2E and say "whoa, that's way too many radical changes to be lumped in with 1E," then or now.