dave2008
Legend
Yes, I think them grant spells is a post 2e idea.
D&D 2E [2e] Monster Mythology Update Project
- Thread starter AuldDragon
- Start date
the Jester
Legend
Arch-devils and demon princes were considered lesser gods in 1e. They could definitely grant spells; there are specifically tons of examples of clerics of Lolth back then.
dave2008
Legend
At some point in 1e, but not originally. Also, since this is about 2e - did they keep that status in 2e? I feel some of the demon princes did, so I assume the devils did too?
Voadam
Legend
AD&D like a lot of D&D editions was all over the place on the defific status of things like archdevils and demon lords.
2e Planescape Planes of Law says it is not known whether the Lords of the Nine are powers or not, but also that "The known Lords are called on by insignificant primes to the point where it gets to be a bother."
2e Monster Mythology lists a few specific demon lords as full patron deities to specific monster races. Demogorgon for Ixitxachitl, Kostchie for frost giants, Baphomet for Minotaurs, Juiblex for aboleths, Sessinek for Lizard Kings, Lolth for drow, and Yeenoghu for gnolls. It does not list any of the Lords of the Nine as specific patron deities.
In 1e Greyhawk the setting specified for the Horned Society that "Deviltry is the religion of the Society, and its leading Hierarch is purported to be an evil high priest of 18th level." In 2e they were overthrown by Iuz so they do not have a lot of detail. The 2e City of Greyhawk has a hierarch of the Horned Society in one of its adventure sheets as a 14th level priest with full spells, "Here, Vazirian the Hierarch is busying himself with some last-minute proofreading of a new Unholy Text of Asmodeus."
The late 2e Guide to Hell said that of the Lords of the Nine only Asmodeus was a full god, the others were special cases, beings who controlled a planar layer but were not powers and had no mortal followers. Asmodeus also predated the needs of belief for powers and is said to have no followers in this product.
In 1e the D series of modules there are plenty of clerics of Lolth, and she is clearly referred to as a demoness and not referred to as a god while Blibdoolpoolp and the Elder Elemental god are referred to as gods. It is not until Q1 and the Fiend Folio that she is specified as both a demon lord and a lesser goddess.
In 1e Deities and Demigods it said that the archdevils from the MM "should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers" It says the same thing for Lolth from the Fiend Folio and gives her a full deity entry.
In the later 1e Manual of the Planes it said "The arch-devils are a group of powerful devils (treat as lesser gods in their home plane)"
2e Forgotten Realms Powers & Pantheons has the demigod Gargauth, reportedly an outcast former Lord of the Nine.
2e Planescape Planes of Law says it is not known whether the Lords of the Nine are powers or not, but also that "The known Lords are called on by insignificant primes to the point where it gets to be a bother."
2e Monster Mythology lists a few specific demon lords as full patron deities to specific monster races. Demogorgon for Ixitxachitl, Kostchie for frost giants, Baphomet for Minotaurs, Juiblex for aboleths, Sessinek for Lizard Kings, Lolth for drow, and Yeenoghu for gnolls. It does not list any of the Lords of the Nine as specific patron deities.
In 1e Greyhawk the setting specified for the Horned Society that "Deviltry is the religion of the Society, and its leading Hierarch is purported to be an evil high priest of 18th level." In 2e they were overthrown by Iuz so they do not have a lot of detail. The 2e City of Greyhawk has a hierarch of the Horned Society in one of its adventure sheets as a 14th level priest with full spells, "Here, Vazirian the Hierarch is busying himself with some last-minute proofreading of a new Unholy Text of Asmodeus."
The late 2e Guide to Hell said that of the Lords of the Nine only Asmodeus was a full god, the others were special cases, beings who controlled a planar layer but were not powers and had no mortal followers. Asmodeus also predated the needs of belief for powers and is said to have no followers in this product.
In 1e the D series of modules there are plenty of clerics of Lolth, and she is clearly referred to as a demoness and not referred to as a god while Blibdoolpoolp and the Elder Elemental god are referred to as gods. It is not until Q1 and the Fiend Folio that she is specified as both a demon lord and a lesser goddess.
In 1e Deities and Demigods it said that the archdevils from the MM "should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers" It says the same thing for Lolth from the Fiend Folio and gives her a full deity entry.
In the later 1e Manual of the Planes it said "The arch-devils are a group of powerful devils (treat as lesser gods in their home plane)"
2e Forgotten Realms Powers & Pantheons has the demigod Gargauth, reportedly an outcast former Lord of the Nine.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
I'll note also that the deity called The Lord of the Undead (a.k.a. Thasmudyan) in DMGR7 The Complete Book of Necromancers (affiliate link) is listed elsewhere in that same book as being a baatezu, making him (alongside Gargauth and Asmodeus) one of the very few devil gods in D&D canon.
FleshEatingBlackFlutterby
Explorer
Faiths and Avatars makes mention of quasi powers being able to grants spells to followers.
"Powers can grant any ability or spell of any level totheir priests that does not exceed their own capabilities. It is through thisability that deities give priests, paladins, and rangers their magical powersand spells. Note that only powers and other creatures ot quasidivine status(such as tanar'ri lords) can grant spells." - Faiths & Avatars, Pg. 16.
...but I'd still make archfiends equal to demi (Bel, The Pit Fiend)-intermediate (Mephistopheles) deities, while keeping Asmodeus (His "avatar" is Greater Deity, His true apocalyptic form is an Over Deity.) and the like at their given divine rankings.
"Powers can grant any ability or spell of any level totheir priests that does not exceed their own capabilities. It is through thisability that deities give priests, paladins, and rangers their magical powersand spells. Note that only powers and other creatures ot quasidivine status(such as tanar'ri lords) can grant spells." - Faiths & Avatars, Pg. 16.
...but I'd still make archfiends equal to demi (Bel, The Pit Fiend)-intermediate (Mephistopheles) deities, while keeping Asmodeus (His "avatar" is Greater Deity, His true apocalyptic form is an Over Deity.) and the like at their given divine rankings.
dave2008
Legend
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Now that's what I call a lore dump! Kudos.
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
I was never too fond of the serpent form of Asmodeus and exclude it from the lore if I actually use him.
@dave2008 Asmodeus is ever so slightly weaker, but he is also harder to harm (+2 vs +3 weapons to hit might be moot by the time PC's get a chance to fight though). It would be an epic battle if the two of them clashed, one which would shake the foundations of reality itself!
@dave2008 Asmodeus is ever so slightly weaker, but he is also harder to harm (+2 vs +3 weapons to hit might be moot by the time PC's get a chance to fight though). It would be an epic battle if the two of them clashed, one which would shake the foundations of reality itself!
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