OSR Dragonslayer RPG truly delivers.

Sadly, it hard to have a conversation about his products, I am finding. Instead of criticism about something being bland or derivative or novel and cool a lot of folks are dismissive and shut conversation down because they don’t like something he said on a podcast once or a rumor he is a mean teacher that made a student buy his book.
So first, designers' politics do matter to me. There are some designers who voice beliefs that want to deny basic human rights to people I care about. I don't want to give those people money and I don't promote them. I think this is good. It's good because platforming these people drives those they would victimize away from the hobby and away from ones games - justifiably. I want my hobby and society to be open and available to people, and all I can do in the context of the hobby is kicking someone who says bigoted crap off my table, not buying their book or and warning other people that they said X or Y then I suppose I have to do that. It's important.

As to the issue of retroclones... I've been in this hobby a long time, and it's just tiresome to see the part I like stagnate. Spinning its wheels and endlessly recreating the same half century or even 15 year old ideas.

Labyrinth Lord, Swords and Wizardry, OSE, etc ... There are dozens of retro-clones that are basically B/X with a couple of changes. Personally I just don't need anymore of them. I get that people have houserules and I like it when they share these ideas. Where every new retroclone loses me is that I don't really see how six or seven house rule changes - even something as big as a bolt on skill system - require one to also reiterate the same 40-50 year old design of AC, HP, GP=XP and a monster list that includes all the old standbys etc. It seems like a waste of time and energy on the part of the designer and it reminds me that whatever the OSR was, today a lot of people using the term spend most of their time "reinventing" one blog post or another from 2012 and trying to charge $30 for it.

Retroclones originally existed because the OGL wasn't around, digital publishing was in its infancy and so it was hard to find old rulesets. This is no longer an issue - you can get copies of the old rules cheaply - though hard copies are a bit trickier.

To me the joy of the OSR was always in creation, pushing beyond what had come before and building off it.

This is also to an extent the source of my distaste for vernacular fantasy and very heavily nostalgia coded products. I can still run B2 or Tharacia if I want - I don't need someone to make another reimaging of "Orcs in a Hole". If I (or really anyone else) doesn't want to run B2 but wants the vibe - sketching up a map, marking where some bags of coins and +1 swords are, and then adding various gangs of humanoids with 1/2 - 3HD shouldn't take more then an hour.

Again, I've been blogging in the OSR/Post OSR for over ten years, so a lot of my strident rejection of bland vernacular fantasy is likely jaded exhaustion. It's like some kind of eternal reoccurrence and not in a good way. If people are just discovering how much they like older style D&D, that's great! I highly recommend going to the source itself and reading the old books. Then one can start undertaking the enjoyable project of building your own game, your own house rules and campaigns. It's really half the fun.
 

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I wrote this long review of it if:
Really cool write up, thanks for sharing.

Like many others, I only have Barrowmaze, so any insight on his other products is very welcome.

My point is that his work hasn't impressed me much since Barrowmaze, and that's enough for me to ignore his B/X clone. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other B/X clones with free editions and really B/X itself is a cheap PDF. Just stop making B/X clones people.
I own and have read just about every clone on the market and think Dragonslayer's art justifies it's existence alone. For those that like AD&D over B/X though, I think there's a lot here to offer as well since it's more of an AD&D clone to me.

Make setting book instead. One that's not about 800 AD Europe or Vikings etc. At least someone would find a bucket of B/X rules for Napoleonic seafaring useful. 1920's space adventure? Muppets battling giant vegetables? I don't care - but no one needs another "Gygaxian" B/X clone in 2025.
Considering Dragonslayer is a Platinum Best Seller, I think there's a lot of people who disagree with this...
 

So first, designers' politics do matter to me. There are some designers who voice beliefs that want to deny basic human rights to people I care about. I don't want to give those people money and I don't promote them. I think this is good. It's good because platforming these people drives those they would victimize away from the hobby and away from ones games - justifiably. I want my hobby and society to be open and available to people, and all I can do in the context of the hobby is kicking someone who says bigoted crap off my table, not buying their book or and warning other people that they said X or Y then I suppose I have to do that. It's important.

As to the issue of retroclones... I've been in this hobby a long time, and it's just tiresome to see the part I like stagnate. Spinning its wheels and endlessly recreating the same half century or even 15 year old ideas.

Labyrinth Lord, Swords and Wizardry, OSE, etc ... There are dozens of retro-clones that are basically B/X with a couple of changes. Personally I just don't need anymore of them. I get that people have houserules and I like it when they share these ideas. Where every new retroclone loses me is that I don't really see how six or seven house rule changes - even something as big as a bolt on skill system - require one to also reiterate the same 40-50 year old design of AC, HP, GP=XP and a monster list that includes all the old standbys etc. It seems like a waste of time and energy on the part of the designer and it reminds me that whatever the OSR was, today a lot of people using the term spend most of their time "reinventing" one blog post or another from 2012 and trying to charge $30 for it.

Retroclones originally existed because the OGL wasn't around, digital publishing was in its infancy and so it was hard to find old rulesets. This is no longer an issue - you can get copies of the old rules cheaply - though hard copies are a bit trickier.

To me the joy of the OSR was always in creation, pushing beyond what had come before and building off it.

This is also to an extent the source of my distaste for vernacular fantasy and very heavily nostalgia coded products. I can still run B2 or Tharacia if I want - I don't need someone to make another reimaging of "Orcs in a Hole". If I (or really anyone else) doesn't want to run B2 but wants the vibe - sketching up a map, marking where some bags of coins and +1 swords are, and then adding various gangs of humanoids with 1/2 - 3HD shouldn't take more then an hour.

Again, I've been blogging in the OSR/Post OSR for over ten years, so a lot of my strident rejection of bland vernacular fantasy is likely jaded exhaustion. It's like some kind of eternal reoccurrence and not in a good way. If people are just discovering how much they like older style D&D, that's great! I highly recommend going to the source itself and reading the old books. Then one can start undertaking the enjoyable project of building your own game, your own house rules and campaigns. It's really half the fun.
On your first point, if you have some clear quote or reference, feel free to message me and I will check it out. I have been reading about the game as much as I can since Christmas and have not seen much that is troubling. So far I have mostly seen people repeating hearsay and drawing conclusions that don’t make sense to me about required reading for a class. If the dude is actually hate mongering I would like to know. Trying to learn about the game itself I did not see anything but very vague things getting parroted mixed in with nonsense that was unrelated. And in a few instances conversations were shut down and thwarted my ability to easily learn more. Clearly don’t buy the game if it bores you of the guy offends you.

to the point about being bored with clones…I don’t see how choices negatively impact anyone. Especially when to my untrained eyes one looks superior in presentation…which this does.

To your point about source material I have stacks of 1e modules…my old books and so on. What I liked with dragonslayer was the simplicity of BX (which I never played much) with decoupling of race and class.

What I am not a fan of is too much of the DIY ethic. My problem with dragonslayer may lie in no exploration rules beyond getting lost. I want a tad more about survival. Not a lot but a little.

Not sure if I am buying but I may. If I can engage with others who have played it maybe there are some solutions to the problems that may impact me and my preferences.
 

@Gus L
Also something else to consider, creators that have their own system have a firm foundation to base their other products on. No worries about another creator deciding to go in a completely different direction, quitting the hobby, or making public statements you don't agree with.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Dragonslayer was created because of Greg's dissatisfaction with how Labyrinth Lord was being managed.
 

Personally, I don't get the ire about retroclones.

People are restoring very old cars to this day, vintage fashion is plenty popular and there are extremely profitable sports/ FPS AAA games that put out a near identical product every single year- people like nostalgic stuff, especially as the hobby's mainsteam gets fuether and further away from its original roots.

I nominated OSRIC 3E as one of my most anticipated games of 2025 on this site, alongside Broken Empires which is basically a mishmash of several well known and established systems.

I also like the new stuff, I've been playing in a long term Cairn campaign, some Crown & Skull, and love me some Realms of Peril and Chasing Adventure.
However, these don't scratch the same itch.

As for the suggestion to go back to the originals: some won't want to give money to a corporation they view as pretty hostile or uncaring, but the truth is we are spoiled by modern era standards of layout and editing.

And maybe creating a B2 equivalent is easy for you, as a veteran and blogger, but it's not for most people. I still struggle with it sometimes, and I sure as hell cannot come close to a quality published product. So in my view there is actually a great deal of value in all of these. Itch has no shrtage of creators not interested in nostalgia, not to mention 5e/ PF2E. No harm in a niche within a niche.

I really try to stay away from political drama, my 2 cents are that if we boycotted every creator we vehemently disagreed with on some topic or another, there would be no hobby today. Play what you like, keep the argumento for outside the table. Others will see it differently.

Happy new year!

BTW, to anyone playing Dragonslayer long term, does it feel different? the situational modifiers intrigue me, as I'm trying to make my players more tactically minded with time.
 

So first, designers' politics do matter to me. There are some designers who voice beliefs that want to deny basic human rights to people I care about. I don't want to give those people money and I don't promote them. I think this is good. It's good because platforming these people drives those they would victimize away from the hobby and away from ones games - justifiably. I want my hobby and society to be open and available to people, and all I can do in the context of the hobby is kicking someone who says bigoted crap off my table, not buying their book or and warning other people that they said X or Y then I suppose I have to do that. It's important.

As to the issue of retroclones... I've been in this hobby a long time, and it's just tiresome to see the part I like stagnate. Spinning its wheels and endlessly recreating the same half century or even 15 year old ideas.

Labyrinth Lord, Swords and Wizardry, OSE, etc ... There are dozens of retro-clones that are basically B/X with a couple of changes. Personally I just don't need anymore of them. I get that people have houserules and I like it when they share these ideas. Where every new retroclone loses me is that I don't really see how six or seven house rule changes - even something as big as a bolt on skill system - require one to also reiterate the same 40-50 year old design of AC, HP, GP=XP and a monster list that includes all the old standbys etc. It seems like a waste of time and energy on the part of the designer and it reminds me that whatever the OSR was, today a lot of people using the term spend most of their time "reinventing" one blog post or another from 2012 and trying to charge $30 for it.

Retroclones originally existed because the OGL wasn't around, digital publishing was in its infancy and so it was hard to find old rulesets. This is no longer an issue - you can get copies of the old rules cheaply - though hard copies are a bit trickier.

To me the joy of the OSR was always in creation, pushing beyond what had come before and building off it.

This is also to an extent the source of my distaste for vernacular fantasy and very heavily nostalgia coded products. I can still run B2 or Tharacia if I want - I don't need someone to make another reimaging of "Orcs in a Hole". If I (or really anyone else) doesn't want to run B2 but wants the vibe - sketching up a map, marking where some bags of coins and +1 swords are, and then adding various gangs of humanoids with 1/2 - 3HD shouldn't take more then an hour.

Again, I've been blogging in the OSR/Post OSR for over ten years, so a lot of my strident rejection of bland vernacular fantasy is likely jaded exhaustion. It's like some kind of eternal reoccurrence and not in a good way. If people are just discovering how much they like older style D&D, that's great! I highly recommend going to the source itself and reading the old books. Then one can start undertaking the enjoyable project of building your own game, your own house rules and campaigns. It's really half the fun.
Personally, I don't get the ire about retroclones.

People are restoring very old cars to this day, vintage fashion is plenty popular and there are extremely profitable sports/ FPS AAA games that put out a near identical product every single year- people like nostalgic stuff, especially as the hobby's mainsteam gets fuether and further away from its original roots.

I nominated OSRIC 3E as one of my most anticipated games of 2025 on this site, alongside Broken Empires which is basically a mishmash of several well known and established systems.

I also like the new stuff, I've been playing in a long term Cairn campaign, some Crown & Skull, and love me some Realms of Peril and Chasing Adventure.
However, these don't scratch the same itch.

As for the suggestion to go back to the originals: some won't want to give money to a corporation they view as pretty hostile or uncaring, but the truth is we are spoiled by modern era standards of layout and editing.

And maybe creating a B2 equivalent is easy for you, as a veteran and blogger, but it's not for most people. I still struggle with it sometimes, and I sure as hell cannot come close to a quality published product. So in my view there is actually a great deal of value in all of these. Itch has no shrtage of creators not interested in nostalgia, not to mention 5e/ PF2E. No harm in a niche within a niche.

I really try to stay away from political drama, my 2 cents are that if we boycotted every creator we vehemently disagreed with on some topic or another, there would be no hobby today. Play what you like, keep the argumento for outside the table. Others will see it differently.

Happy new year!

BTW, to anyone playing Dragonslayer long term, does it feel different? the situational modifiers intrigue me, as I'm trying to make my players more tactically minded with time.
I'm of two minds about this. Personally, I appreciate retroclones. In fact, Swords & Wizardry Complete is my go-to for D&D-type gaming. So much so, in fact, that I haven't felt the need to upgrade to the revised edition. I figure that as long as I have S&W Complete, along with OSRIC for anything that may come up that I don't care to handwave or make something up for, I'm good. It "feels" to me like the D&D I played "back in the day", as the saying goes.

There is, however, a kind of creative bankruptcy in the OSR. I think the reason why most OSR games fall from favor after a few years to be replaced by the new hotness, is because they're essentially all the same game, with tweaks. And after the new shiny of the latest tweak wears off, you're still playing the same game you've been playing for (in my case) 40 years or so. But, what's this? A new tweak? Ah, on the the next clone. And so on.

Personally, I find a lot more of that "early days of gaming" spirit in the Nu-SR, which I generally find more inspiring as a result.

I've heard grogs opine that the OSR is like punk rock, but that isn't really accurate. Punk was about deconstruction, not reconstruction. It was about challenging institutions, rather than fealty to a strict orthodoxy based on the way things were done in the past. The OSR is more like a tribute band than a punk band. Or, if it is "punk", it's punk in the way that Blink-182 is, rather than the way Crass or Dead Kennedys were.

None of which is to say I dislike the OSR, or that style of gaming. Quite the opposite. It's great. But a lot has happened in gaming since 1974, and much of it is an aurguable improvement. Just as many of the "house rules" that get folded into OSR games are improvements.
 

Retroclones originally existed because the OGL wasn't around, digital publishing was in its infancy and so it was hard to find old rulesets. This is no longer an issue - you can get copies of the old rules cheaply - though hard copies are a bit trickier.
Well, the OGL WAS around, but it was initially unclear whether it would cover them. Which was part of why OSRIC didn't use it, and why Labyrinth Lord contained numerous small arbitrary changes (like to the numbers in the XP tables, the treasure types, and inverting Morale) from B/X to reduce the chance of being accused of infringement.

But yes, digital publishing was new, and for a while WotC wasn't selling PDFs of the old rules, which created the initial market for clones.

So first, designers' politics do matter to me. There are some designers who voice beliefs that want to deny basic human rights to people I care about. I don't want to give those people money and I don't promote them. I think this is good. It's good because platforming these people drives those they would victimize away from the hobby and away from ones games - justifiably. I want my hobby and society to be open and available to people, and all I can do in the context of the hobby is kicking someone who says bigoted crap off my table, not buying their book or and warning other people that they said X or Y then I suppose I have to do that. It's important.
100%.

On your first point, if you have some clear quote or reference, feel free to message me and I will check it out. I have been reading about the game as much as I can since Christmas and have not seen much that is troubling. So far I have mostly seen people repeating hearsay and drawing conclusions that don’t make sense to me about required reading for a class. If the dude is actually hate mongering I would like to know.
I have personally witnessed him expressing bigotry toward a marginalized group. Within the past month. Though I'm afraid I don't have a screenshot to share with you.

Which is the only reason I haven't bought Barrowmaze yet, as I enjoyed it when I played in it a few years ago. And a factor disinclining me to pick up Dragonslayer, although it sounds pretty good.

Similar reason to why I can't support ACKS, though I can't remember the last time I personally saw Macris say something hateful. I haven't seen him repudiate his past political associations, so I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.
 

Well, the OGL WAS around, but it was initially unclear whether it would cover them. Which was part of why OSRIC didn't use it, and why Labyrinth Lord contained numerous small arbitrary changes (like to the numbers in the XP tables, the treasure types, and inverting Morale) from B/X to reduce the chance of being accused of infringement.

But yes, digital publishing was new, and for a while WotC wasn't selling PDFs of the old rules, which created the initial market for clones.


100%.


I have personally witnessed him expressing bigotry toward a marginalized group. Within the past month. Though I'm afraid I don't have a screenshot to share with you.

Which is the only reason I haven't bought Barrowmaze yet, as I enjoyed it when I played in it a few years ago. And a factor disinclining me to pick up Dragonslayer, although it sounds pretty good.

Similar reason to why I can't support ACKS, though I can't remember the last time I personally saw Macris say something hateful. I haven't seen him repudiate his past political associations, so I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.
He is also currently involved with Vox Day. Day publishes webcomics based on Macris' Ascendant RPG, has contributed to ACKS material in the past, and there is an ACKS/public domain Conan supplement planned, using material published by Day's Castalia House imprint as a basis.


So, it's not just Macris' past associations that are at issue, but the fact that he is STILL involved with legitimately and inarguably bigoted people.

There are conservative creators I disagree with, but don't feel gross supporting. Macris and Gillespie are not among them.

Edit: I have personally seen posters on Macris' Discord claiming that they got into ACKS because of Vox Day (who has used his platform to drum up support for Macris' Kickstarters in the past), or another racist sci-fi author whose name escapes me at the moment. There is active racist recruitment going on in our hobby, and the voices raising the alarm are not being hysterical or hyperbolic.
 
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I'm of two minds about this. Personally, I appreciate retroclones. In fact, Swords & Wizardry Complete is my go-to for D&D-type gaming. So much so, in fact, that I haven't felt the need to upgrade to the revised edition. I figure that as long as I have S&W Complete, along with OSRIC for anything that may come up that I don't care to handwave or make something up for, I'm good. It "feels" to me like the D&D I played "back in the day", as the saying goes.

There is, however, a kind of creative bankruptcy in the OSR. I think the reason why most OSR games fall from favor after a few years to be replaced by the new hotness, is because they're essentially all the same game, with tweaks. And after the new shiny of the latest tweak wears off, you're still playing the same game you've been playing for (in my case) 40 years or so. But, what's this? A new tweak? Ah, on the the next clone. And so on.

Personally, I find a lot more of that "early days of gaming" spirit in the Nu-SR, which I generally find more inspiring as a result.

I've heard grogs opine that the OSR is like punk rock, but that isn't really accurate. Punk was about deconstruction, not reconstruction. It was about challenging institutions, rather than fealty to a strict orthodoxy based on the way things were done in the past. The OSR is more like a tribute band than a punk band. Or, if it is "punk", it's punk in the way that Blink-182 is, rather than the way Crass or Dead Kennedys were.

None of which is to say I dislike the OSR, or that style of gaming. Quite the opposite. It's great. But a lot has happened in gaming since 1974, and much of it is an aurguable improvement. Just as many of the "house rules" that get folded into OSR games are improvements.
I have zero personal nostalgia to TSR era D&D, I went "back" because of personal taste.
Not to rehash the Revival/ Renaissance thing all over again, but I do think there are innovations in this aspect but even those who don't add something groundbreaking are just like seasoning. Every product innovates wildly wgen it's young and moves into refinements as it matures. Doesn't mean those don't still add up with time. So it'll take a few years between "upgrade cycles". OSE didn't add much in term of content, still pushed the OSR forward.

Nothing wrong with keeping a certain flavour of play alive and thriving.

And no need to stay in this niche exclusively
 

I have zero personal nostalgia to TSR era D&D, I went "back" because of personal taste.
Not to rehash the Revival/ Renaissance thing all over again, but I do think there are innovations in this aspect but even those who don't add something groundbreaking are just like seasoning. Every product innovates wildly wgen it's young and moves into refinements as it matures. Doesn't mean those don't still add up with time. So it'll take a few years between "upgrade cycles". OSE didn't add much in term of content, still pushed the OSR forward.

Nothing wrong with keeping a certain flavour of play alive and thriving.

And no need to stay in this niche exclusively
I am not an OSR expert. At all.

That said, if the improvements are incremental and you can choose the one that fits, not seeing a downside. Don’t buy what you don’t want need or like for whatever reason.

I did not really give any clones a second glance due to presentation. The look of dragonslayer made me look closer and reconsider.

I have a few rules questions however. Not sure how easy that can be accomplished given its newness not knowing how responsive the author is to rules questions.

I think my osr experience is showing. My assumption is that a lot of action resolution is winged. Like roll under ability or highest role in a competition wins etc.
 

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