The New Romance
Villager
I'd say it's good for the class flavour. Many abilities in B/X are situational or rarely come up, I think that's okay.
OSR Minimalist Paladin and Ranger rules for B/X aka Old School Essentials
- Thread starter Mannahnin
- Start date
Voadam
Legend
Just for reference here are the powers of the original paladin from OD&D Greyhawk:
The paladin has a number of very powerful aids in his continual seeking for good: He can “lay on his hands” to cure wounds or diseases in others (two points of damage for every level the paladin has attained, one disease per five levels, either function performable but one per day). Paladins are not themselves subject to disease. They have a 10% higher saving throw against all forms of attack (excluding melee). Paladins of 8th level and above dispel evil (spells, undead, evil enchanted monsters, and the like) simply by ordering it hence, and they detect all evil at a range of 6”.
Paladins with any form of “Holy Sword” are virtually immune to all magic (see MONSTERS & TREASURE, MAGIC & TREASURE, Swords).
The paladin may at any time he chooses obtain a horse which is likewise gifted, but he may never obtain a second within ten years of the first, so if one is killed it is not automatically replaced. The paladin’s horse is a Heavy, with Armor Class 5, Moves 18”, has 5+1 Hit Dice, and high intelligence.
8th level dispelling evil at will is the surprisingly kick butt capstone one for me. Also any form of holy sword, not just a specific individual type of magic sword is more promising than the 1e version.
The paladin has a number of very powerful aids in his continual seeking for good: He can “lay on his hands” to cure wounds or diseases in others (two points of damage for every level the paladin has attained, one disease per five levels, either function performable but one per day). Paladins are not themselves subject to disease. They have a 10% higher saving throw against all forms of attack (excluding melee). Paladins of 8th level and above dispel evil (spells, undead, evil enchanted monsters, and the like) simply by ordering it hence, and they detect all evil at a range of 6”.
Paladins with any form of “Holy Sword” are virtually immune to all magic (see MONSTERS & TREASURE, MAGIC & TREASURE, Swords).
The paladin may at any time he chooses obtain a horse which is likewise gifted, but he may never obtain a second within ten years of the first, so if one is killed it is not automatically replaced. The paladin’s horse is a Heavy, with Armor Class 5, Moves 18”, has 5+1 Hit Dice, and high intelligence.
8th level dispelling evil at will is the surprisingly kick butt capstone one for me. Also any form of holy sword, not just a specific individual type of magic sword is more promising than the 1e version.
Gus L
Adventurer
Greyhawk is such a strange book to me - the original LBB's read to me like a solid core for a system that has a lot of interlocking parts, and then along comes Greyhawk, and it's a bunch of ideas, some interesting and some no, that just kicks that all over to a degree. Fascinating example I think of rules accreting from play. I do wish the arquebus had made it off the Weapons v. Armor table and onto the variable weapon damage one though.
Great point! The rules around magic swords + fighters and the dwarven throwing hammer always struck me as a fascinating bit from OD&D that was under appreciated in OSR space and today in the Post-OSR. Nice set of abilities there all around that seem very powerful.
Magic Swords being a huge part of combat bonuses and limited to fighters (and paladins...) seems like a major bit of class design limiting clerics, but also one really rooted in war games that really couldn't stand up to RPG play where players want fun gear for their leveling characters.
Li Shenron
Legend
@Mannahnin I like your take! Maybe I would add an extra benefit to Ranger against getting lost or starve in the wilderness.
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
Here's the Paladin from the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia for comparison (note, these abilities kick in at 9th level, but if you want it from the start, it shouldn't be difficult to change the level the effects kick in):
Paladins
A Lawful traveling fighter may be known as a paladin if he meets the following requirements. If he does not meet those requirements, he may become a knight (described below).
1. The fighter must swear fealty (an oath of service) to a Lawful clerical order to gain paladin status. The fighter must be of Name level or greater to be accepted by the clerical order.
Thereafter, the paladin may be summoned by the order's leaders at any time, and must do as they command, as long as the service aids the powers of Good.
2. A paladin can detect evil (as per the cleric spell) as often as once per round, simply by concentrating. (Range: 120'. The paladin cannot use this ability and attack in the same round.)
3. If the paladin's Wisdom score is 13 or greater, the character can cast cleric spells as if he were a cleric of one-third his actual experience level (round any fraction down); if a fighter becomes a paladin right at 9th level, he'll immediately gain the spells of a 3rd level cleric.
A 17th level paladin can cast spells as if he were a 5th level cleric. If his Wisdom score is 12 or less, the fighter can still be a paladin, but cannot cast spells.
The paladin learns how to meditate and cast spells from the clerics of the order. The clerics will refuse any offer of compensation or payment for this service.
4. A paladin can turn undead, as if he were a cleric of one-third his actual experience level (round all fractions down). Therefore, a 6th or 7th level paladin can turn undead with the same ability of a 2nd level cleric.
5. A paladin may only travel with a number of hirelings equal to or less than his clerical level. In other words, if he can cast spells or
turn undead as a 5th level cleric, he can have five hirelings accompany him.
6. A paladin must assist anyone who asks for help—with two exceptions: He does not have to help evil characters or achieve evil goals, and if the paladin is on a mission for a higher authority (such as a quest, serving a duke, etc.), he can offer only a small amount of help (such as sheltering or advising the person in need of aid), along with an explanation for his refusal. Assistance never involves donations of money or items, but only service for a short time.
There's also rules for a "Knight" (those of Neutral alignment) and "Avengers" (those of Chaotic alignment) if you are interested.
Paladins
A Lawful traveling fighter may be known as a paladin if he meets the following requirements. If he does not meet those requirements, he may become a knight (described below).
1. The fighter must swear fealty (an oath of service) to a Lawful clerical order to gain paladin status. The fighter must be of Name level or greater to be accepted by the clerical order.
Thereafter, the paladin may be summoned by the order's leaders at any time, and must do as they command, as long as the service aids the powers of Good.
2. A paladin can detect evil (as per the cleric spell) as often as once per round, simply by concentrating. (Range: 120'. The paladin cannot use this ability and attack in the same round.)
3. If the paladin's Wisdom score is 13 or greater, the character can cast cleric spells as if he were a cleric of one-third his actual experience level (round any fraction down); if a fighter becomes a paladin right at 9th level, he'll immediately gain the spells of a 3rd level cleric.
A 17th level paladin can cast spells as if he were a 5th level cleric. If his Wisdom score is 12 or less, the fighter can still be a paladin, but cannot cast spells.
The paladin learns how to meditate and cast spells from the clerics of the order. The clerics will refuse any offer of compensation or payment for this service.
4. A paladin can turn undead, as if he were a cleric of one-third his actual experience level (round all fractions down). Therefore, a 6th or 7th level paladin can turn undead with the same ability of a 2nd level cleric.
5. A paladin may only travel with a number of hirelings equal to or less than his clerical level. In other words, if he can cast spells or
turn undead as a 5th level cleric, he can have five hirelings accompany him.
6. A paladin must assist anyone who asks for help—with two exceptions: He does not have to help evil characters or achieve evil goals, and if the paladin is on a mission for a higher authority (such as a quest, serving a duke, etc.), he can offer only a small amount of help (such as sheltering or advising the person in need of aid), along with an explanation for his refusal. Assistance never involves donations of money or items, but only service for a short time.
There's also rules for a "Knight" (those of Neutral alignment) and "Avengers" (those of Chaotic alignment) if you are interested.
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
This was the first version I ever encountered, since I started with BECMI.
I do rather like the concept of Lawful fighters being able to BECOME Paladins after getting some experience under their belts, if they devote themselves to it.
This is kind of how it worked for Holger Carlsen (from Three Hearts & Three Lions), one of Gary's primary inspirations, and kind of how it's implied to work in Supplement I: Greyhawk. "Charisma scores of 17 or greater by fighters indicate the possibility of paladin status IF THEY ARE LAWFUL from the commencement of play for that character. If such fighters elect to they can then become paladins, always doing lawful deeds, for any chaotic act will immediately revoke the status of paladin, and it can never be regained." It's a bit vague, but I read the "from the commencement of play" passage as indicating that as long as you've maintained the ethos and standards since the character started out, you can take on paladin status whenever.
Elizabeth Moon's excellent Deed of Paksenarrion series also has it work like this, where an experienced fighter can join a paladin order, be trained, tested, and become one, or the gods can select you for service and invest you with the power directly without need for an organization.
I don't think I'd ever want fighters to need to wait until 9th level; I think the 3.x model of making prestige classes normally start being available around 5th or 6th level made sense. That way you can get access to them during the "sweet spot" levels.
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Gus L
Adventurer
I do like the way that BECMI (Specifically "C" I think?) has various "prestige classes" and think it's a good way to manage things longer campaigns. The BECMI ones however strike me as fairly mechanically uninteresting. There's a lot of nice flavor there, but it's also pretty darn generic - which I love less.
I personally like prestige classes or alternate classes that do a few interesting things with a good solid mechanical effect - E.G. a berserker that can swap AC in the next round for ATK bonus in this round or gain temporary HP that have to be paid back with exhaustion. Things that make the core element of the class different - and can also be applied to a variety of conception of the archetype. So for this berserker one might give them a cleave (attack again if they kill an enemy), temporary HP, and a AC for ATK bonus swap, but counter these with the need to make a Save vs. Paralysis to stop fighting if they haven't killed anything in melee (also to run away). Because these don't have a lot of fluff attached one can build a bunch of different "Berserkers" off this: mushroom brew mad barbarians, sorcerously compelled gladiators, religious fanatics, or maybe just badger folk...
Now of course one could also go the other way with equal success - very specific classes that tie deeply into the setting. Either I think is great, but that sort of middle ground of unacknowledged and undiscussed generic fantasy built up by things like knightly vows frustrates me ... because that's not something I could use without a lot of changes and it's not something giving me a complete and unique setting to work with. Generally this is one of the things that has left me cold about the "CMI" part of BECMI since the late 1980's - especially because these sets are for high level PCs. By the time your campaign is in the Champion set even, you've got dozens of adventures with the PC and the world ... If it's a good campaign things have gotten weird. Your PC isn't becoming a bland shiny armor on a white horse sort of paladin, but rather join an esoteric order that rides axe beaks and worships an ancient lava spirit or some other absolute nonsense that only makes sense in the context of the specific campaign. These rules seem like they would just become a burden at the point when the referee and players are invested in the setting to a huge degree
I personally like prestige classes or alternate classes that do a few interesting things with a good solid mechanical effect - E.G. a berserker that can swap AC in the next round for ATK bonus in this round or gain temporary HP that have to be paid back with exhaustion. Things that make the core element of the class different - and can also be applied to a variety of conception of the archetype. So for this berserker one might give them a cleave (attack again if they kill an enemy), temporary HP, and a AC for ATK bonus swap, but counter these with the need to make a Save vs. Paralysis to stop fighting if they haven't killed anything in melee (also to run away). Because these don't have a lot of fluff attached one can build a bunch of different "Berserkers" off this: mushroom brew mad barbarians, sorcerously compelled gladiators, religious fanatics, or maybe just badger folk...
Now of course one could also go the other way with equal success - very specific classes that tie deeply into the setting. Either I think is great, but that sort of middle ground of unacknowledged and undiscussed generic fantasy built up by things like knightly vows frustrates me ... because that's not something I could use without a lot of changes and it's not something giving me a complete and unique setting to work with. Generally this is one of the things that has left me cold about the "CMI" part of BECMI since the late 1980's - especially because these sets are for high level PCs. By the time your campaign is in the Champion set even, you've got dozens of adventures with the PC and the world ... If it's a good campaign things have gotten weird. Your PC isn't becoming a bland shiny armor on a white horse sort of paladin, but rather join an esoteric order that rides axe beaks and worships an ancient lava spirit or some other absolute nonsense that only makes sense in the context of the specific campaign. These rules seem like they would just become a burden at the point when the referee and players are invested in the setting to a huge degree
Jack Daniel
Legend
I use this kind of "prestiging" as a means of sneaking sub-classes into my BECMI games.
For fighters, I do make them wait until 9th level, and then they can become paladins if Lawful, avengers if Chaotic, or bards if Neutral (which feels like a reference to 1e bards, but it ultimately comes from the Dragon #177 druidic knight). I give avengers a berserker rage ability, because that seems to fit the profile of a "Chaos knight."
For clerics, I require that by the time they reach 6th level, they have to settle on Lawful cleric, Neutral druid, or Chaotic anticleric/cultist (cf. how 3LBB "clerics of 7th level and greater are either Law or Chaos, and there is a sharp distinction between them").
For magic-users, I just implement the Glantri Secret Crafts from GAZ3 (which are sort of like 2e specialty schools, except that magic-users can only join a specialty after 5th level, and the specialty has its own secondary XP track).
For fighters, I do make them wait until 9th level, and then they can become paladins if Lawful, avengers if Chaotic, or bards if Neutral (which feels like a reference to 1e bards, but it ultimately comes from the Dragon #177 druidic knight). I give avengers a berserker rage ability, because that seems to fit the profile of a "Chaos knight."
For clerics, I require that by the time they reach 6th level, they have to settle on Lawful cleric, Neutral druid, or Chaotic anticleric/cultist (cf. how 3LBB "clerics of 7th level and greater are either Law or Chaos, and there is a sharp distinction between them").
For magic-users, I just implement the Glantri Secret Crafts from GAZ3 (which are sort of like 2e specialty schools, except that magic-users can only join a specialty after 5th level, and the specialty has its own secondary XP track).
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IIRC, Old School Essentials gives you the option of giving Clerics a lay on hands ability. cures 1 +1/cleric level damage. Not quite the same, but someone else was thinking about how to add LOH to B/X rules, too.
I decided to use it, as a helpful get out of dying ignobly card for low levels, lol. Not a cure-all, but it'll let you save a party member's life once in a while.
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