Level Up (A5E) Magnificent Mansion: No Haven or Supply

Satirical Bard said:

I'm not clear on how making MM (a 7th level spell) a haven makes the journey rules 'disappear', to be honest. If the concern is that it's free after buying the initial component, you could have just made the components be consumed, as you have with tiny hut (I presume as a deliberate stop to cheesing that spell, as happens in o5e). I've never played at 13th level as player or DM though, so it's not a hill I care to die on

On the supply front, what does this mean mechanically, given it's presumably not supply? "The residence contains enough food to provide ample nourishment for a number of people..." (emphasis added)

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it maybe does something else tiny hut doesn't. Look at Ag 429 & what is needed to take the recovery action. Looks like MM might allow saving a trip back to town. I'm not sure what monsters & things might require the recovery action to clear though

Tiny Hut is actually a haven right now only because spell says so; without impenetrable dome you still need to stand a watch - so it does not satisfy haven description in T&T.

tetrasodium said:

it maybe does something else tiny hut doesn't. Look at Ag 429 & what is needed to take the recovery action. Looks like MM might allow saving a trip back to town. I'm not sure what monsters & things might require the recovery action to clear though

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The recovery activity takes a week at least, but I'm sure you can just recast it on the 24hr mark

ElliottBalding said:

The recovery activity takes a week at least, but I'm sure you can just recast it on the 24hr mark

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Yea, burning the slot for a week would be needed but without the invisible unopenable door I imagine it would be tough to accomplish outside of a city even if you find another way of getting the lifestyle up in the wilderness. Can recasting it for a week allow a chance at the recovery action might be a good errata topic

MarkB said:

That's fair enough. I guess my issue with what I've seen of the system so far is that most of the effort seems to have gone into nerfing spells and items to prevent them from impacting the journey rules at all, rather than trying to work with them and make them things that can assist with journey challenges rather than nullifying them entirely - so that a magically assisted party can push on further, faster, and through more extreme environments.

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That's by far the approach I'd have preferred, to be honest.
Changing literally everything so that mundane journeys can still be a problem even at high levels feels quite forced.
I can accept a goodberry that does not provide Supply (we're talking a level 1 spell and probably low level characters), but a MM that doesn't do that and also isn't a haven is way too weird. It's easier to resurrect people than feeding them!

A tiered approach is probably a better idea: you can negate the issues of supplies and haven with a good enough spell, but only if you're journeying through a lower tier environment.
For example, Tier 2 party could ignore tier 1 journey supplies and haven restrictions if they cast a "tier 2" spell (so at least a level 3 spell).
A tier 3 party could ignore tier 1 and 2 journey supplies and haven restriction if they cast a "tier 3" spell (5th-6th level)
And so on.
This way the PCs and players experience the power fantasy of solving problems they previously had with a single spell, while still being challenged by higher level threats

Is this still the RAW/RAI, that Magnificent Mansion doesn't count as a haven becauseit doesn't specifically say that it does? It seems to satisfy requirements for being a haven though, as per the rest n haven rules
Tiny Hut makes sense that you have to specify it since it's a small bubble on dirt possibly surrounded by enemies. MM is a 7th level spell that creates something comfy and pretty safe etc. but apparently because it doesn't specify it's a haven then it's not? Heck at that level you can just teleport back to town!

A haven is a place to get a meal and a full night’s sleep without the reasonable risk of attack or harm from the elements. For example, an inn is considered a haven, but a campsite where adventurers must take turns keeping watch through the night is not. Some spells and class features may create havens.

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Magnificent Mansion fits that definition so I don't see how it could be otherwise.

For me, havens are places that are fixed and populated with other inhabitants that you, and/or your party, rely on for safety.
I am very glad that TH and MM are not havens in A5e because these spells really trivialized the resources required for exploration and, more importantly for me, removed any desire for players to explore the world before them - speaking to NPCs to understand where they can rest while they make a long journey for instance.

Travelling through the Barren Wastes or the Putrid swamps? Not so barren or putrid any more - we have TH and MM that will sort that out. These spells, and others, made everything become "oh, it's this land thing we have to go through".

While I think that it is maybe difficult to argue against MM being counted as a haven as per RAW/RAI, I am in agreement with Anonymous3 in that I feel like its inclusion really eclipses the exploration pillar of play. I think if the material cost was greater and needed to be spent with every cast, that might help reduce the power of the spell and keep a risk/reward element to exploration, especially if the material cost is bulky. Then I could see players needing to be cautious and intentional about their use of the spell since they might only have it a couple of times.

Otherwise, for me personally I just as soon go without either TH or MM in my games because I'd rather my players spend their money and effort building up strongholds or helping re-establish abandoned towns with the promise of getting a safe haven out of it. That is, in the long run, more interesting from a gameplay perspective, imo.

Anonymous3 said:

I am very glad that TH and MM are not havens in A5e

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tiny hut is explicitly a haven in A5e.