D&D 5E Mage Hand and Trap Avoidance

MGibster said:

This is particular scenario, no. It was much too late the pull anything out as the damage was already done so to speak. Generally speaking, sure, I'd allow mage hand to pull things out of a fire or under other hazardous conditions.

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I'd go so far as to say that (in my headcanon) that is why the spell was created in the first place.

MGibster said:

There's always verisimilitude, right?

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You know, weirdly, I had a whole paragraph about that. Like, my post was longer than the single sentence you quoted.

MGibster said:

Imagine you're going to enter a dungeon to search for the phylactery of a lich. Outside the entrance is a grisly display, mounted on dozens of pikes you see the severed heads of adventurers who attempted and failed at the task you've set out to accomplish. Is this going to keep a stalwart player character such as yourself out of the dungeon? Heck, no. You're made of sterner stuff. But within the setting, it could help explain why people from the nearby town avoid this place instead of trying to plunder any treasures within themselves. It also serves as a warning to the PCs that this is a dangerous place. Though knowing PCs, they probably won't think they're endangered anyway.

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Yeah, set dressing. Like I said.

MGibster said:

My biggest dislike of traps is how they slow the game down. I don't miss the old days of PCs walking around with 10 foot poles probing everything around them. I don't like them taking a lot of time to check for traps at every single door. It's just boring and I'd rather get on to something entertaining. If I'm going to have a trap, I want it to be entertaining. I don't even care if it's harmful, I just want it to be entertaining.

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Interestingly, comics, movies, and fiction often have a solution to this, which often seems to annoy people in the TTRPG space. Montages.

A lot of comics when they want to get across the "and the adventurers deal with several deadly traps that aren't actually all that interesting to deal with" do so during a montage. And if the entire point of the traps you are putting into the dungeon is "verisimilitude demands there be traps to kill intruders here" then... just deal with them via a montage. Because it is boring to deal with these sort of traps individually, and worse, they cause the players to act in a paranoid manner.

Now, yes, yes, I know some people prefer that, but many many many players and DMs DO NOT like that. Because, again, if a trap's discovery means that the trap is no longer a factor (either because it is trivial to disarm or because it has been set-off and there is no counter-play or actions to be taken) then it is boring. Because the only option left to the players is tedium.

I think this may be an important distinction and solution to "the problem of traps" in that we can separate them. Some traps are just set dressing for the scene, to give a specific feel, and they should not be treated as challenges. Other traps are actual challenges, and therefore their challenge should not be rooted in obscuring their existence. And with that dichotomy, you can now engage in some dynamic play.

grimmgoose said:

You're right, it's the point of the spell.

I'm saying it's a bad spell, because that's a bad point.

Arcane Eye gives one player the spotlight, and the gameplay looks like one of two ways:

Option 1:

• DM: Okay, you see a long hallway, with one door at the far end, a hole in the wall on the left, and a door on the right.
• Player with Arcane Eye: Okay, I go through the door on the right. Through the key hole.
• DM: You see x, y, z, plus a, b, c.
• Arcane Eye: Okay, now the hole on the left.
• DM: You see a trap. Also d, e, f.
• Arcane Eye: Nice. Now the door in the center.
• DM: [to the rest of the party: "yeah, go ahead and grab some snacks. We'll be here awhile"]. This looks like an armory. You see g, h, and i. Opposite this room are two more doors...

ad infinitum until the player gets bored, the party (or the DM) revolts, or the dungeon is fully mapped out.

Option 2:

• DM: not this again. Look, here's the map. Let's just say you know where everything is. Let's move on.

Fundamentally, it's a spell that encourages boring gameplay. The fact that boring gameplay 'is the point' doesn't make it any better.

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Horwath said:

I used that spell for one session, it kills any suspense in the game, changed it for next session at my own request.

there are uses for the spell like having a drone to spy on an army, but it kills dungeon crawls.

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In my last old school dungeon crawl game I used a more limited version of it. The caster would sort of astrally project from their body Dr. Strange-style, at a "flying" speed of 60' round, and was quasi-invisible (some particularly perceptive or magical creatures could see them). While projecting, the caster's body lay helpless and unaware. They could pass through objects and walls, but had to remain in contact with air as well (so not moving through any solid obstacle wider than their body or possibly outstretched arms), and I limited the duration to the caster's level in rounds.

I made this a 2nd or 3rd level spell in Five Torches Deep, though it wasn't on the regular spell list and had to be found. The limited amount of scouting made it valuable but short enough duration that no one checked out or was bored- the players would all be psyched to see what the mage found in their relatively brief jaunt, and his decisions about which passages to explore had weight because he had a relatively limited distance he could cover.

Chaosmancer said:

But deterrents are kind of useless. In fact, they are worse than useless, because if they work, the party is deterred from continuing forward.

I think, really, "traps" and "puzzles" need to be thought of first and foremost as challenges. Sure, you can have the occasional set-dressing of a trip-wire with a crossbow bolt, or an exploding rune, but those are truly in my opinion, set dressing. They only exist to make the place FEEL correct. Whether or not they affect the party is entirely separate from that goal.

What is a more engaging challenge though? A hallway with a hidden plate that shoots you with a needle? Or a hallway littered with mosiacs and art, which slowly constricts and crushes the party unless they can find the hidden lever that resets the hall and opens the door? Both are "overcome" by the finding of the hidden trigger, but one of them is just boring. Because success and failure are nearly indistinguishable in it. 1d10+2 damage isn't going to make something memorable. And some people try and fix this by simply making it more damage, but that doesn't solve the problem. The problem is the flow of the challenge. A trap like a tripwire crossbow is over and done with the moment you learn of its existence. Either you failed and got shot, or you successfully spotted it and it is no longer a threat.

Make the flow different, by making the noticing of the trap completely separate from the defeat of the trap, and you know have a far superior challenge.

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I don't think deterring the players is necessarily bad, much less useless.

Part of the point of obvious traps (or whatever else folks want to call them) is to give the players forewarning. If they don't have to go where the trap is or open the chest or what have you, then they now have a level of informed consent in engaging with it. The danger is signposted. They can choose to take a risk or not. Whereas a "traditional" completely hidden pressure plate or something is more a "surprise, gotcha! Mark off some HP".

Of course if they DO have to engage with it (say the trap obstructs the one route to the McGuffin), then it's more of a dangerous puzzle.

This just reminded me of the Elfquest books and the skills challenge for the girl in one of the first books. One of them comes up with a claw to fetch his weapon trapped in the crevasse and the other just uses the magnet stone he was lent.

Kind of seems like mage hand and if it is the magnet.