D&D (2024) Removing Concentration

The rest of your post is quite thorough and reflects good playtesting practice (which, believe me, I don't say that very often!), but I wanted to pull this part out for comment because it...just comes across as kind of self-contradictory.

On the one hand, you say "my veteran group has [effectively never] had a problem with feeling that non-casters are overshadowed." But then you say "amongst groups that accept that the world-changing non-combat stuff in D&D is exclusively for caster classes".

Like, even apart from the optimization thing and the false dichotomy you've asserted with it, I don't see how those two statements can possibly be reconciled. That is quite literally saying, "My players have accepted that being a non-caster means being overshadowed by the casters." It's not that they don't feel overshadowed--it's that they've decided not to care about it.

Ah, yeah. It looks like I wasn't terribly clear. The idea is that casters having the world-changing non-combat stuff doesn't necessarily make you feel overshadowed as a non-caster, when that isn't something you are going for with your character concept. Your character is putting out more round after round damage, or tanking better, or being incredible with skills, or doing whatever it is that they are focusing on being good at with that class, that the casters aren't doing, and therefore not feeling overshadowed. So, it is about not caring about being overshadowed in certain manners, which is kind of something that everyone has to do anyway. Picking someone without heavy armor proficiency is choosing to be overshadowed if you care about wearing the heaviest armor (which most people don't). It's just that, in my experience, not every player cares about having the world-changing non-combat stuff. I mean, I love casters (I honestly like just about every class), but when I'm not playing a caster, I personally don't tend to care about that. If I'm playing a tricksy rogue, I care about being the best at that (and probably about doing a good job being the group's comedian), etc.

Sorry if it looked like I was trying to present a false dichotomy. I was really just briefly contrasting and conflating some things that seem to come up in that context to explain how my group can not have some problems that other groups might have. Pretty much all of the preferences and playstyle elements I mentioned can be separated and combined in different ways.

Are you intending to do anything equivalent for non-casters?

Because, well, this is a pretty major power-up. Even if your martials don't care about being overshadowed, you've just massively expanded the list of potent, effective spells. While that is a major boon for anyone who wants to use spells, I could certainly see even your group feeling like that's giving a major benefit to casters while doing nothing at all for non-casters. I know you said that this post was about those caster effects, but it would seem reasonable to me to offer something, even if not nearly so dramatic as this power-up, to your non-caster players.

Absolutely. For monsters (since the changes to casters happen for NPCs too, I figure it's relevant) I'm basically using the 2014 monsters as a starting point, since I prefer the design, but increasing their stats and features--particularly for the more physical/"martial" types.

On the player side, I've been making customization to some of the classes. 2024 gave me some inspiration, but most of the time I'm not actually adopting what it did because I didn't care for the implementation. A few off the top of my head: I have tweaked barbarians so that the bonus action to activate rage can be used alongside other rage-compatible bonus actions (and they're going to get another buff I'm still working on); I've given the fighter a feature that let's them mark opponents; I've adopted the 2024 changes to monk's Patient Defense and Step of the Wind; rangers get some of the Tasha's stuff added on to the PHB stuff (instead of as an alternative), they all know hunter's mark without needing a spell pick, and it doesn't require concentration when they cast it (it still does require concentration for non-rangers), rogues are going to get some neat stuff inspired by LevelUp. Those are a few off the top of my head. I try to pay attention to critiques I see about relative class power, and my gut feelings from experience usually fall the same way.

One of the ones that I'm finding to be very impactful, is that I'm applying a version of the Cleaving through Creatures variant rule.

Here's my version:
"When your melee weapon attack reduces a creature to 0 hit points, choose another target that is within reach and would be a valid target for the attack. If your original attack roll hits that target, apply any remaining damage to it. If it is reduced to 0 hp, you can continue to target additional creatures as long as you have damage and valid targets remaining."

The main difference from the DMG version is that the additional creatures don't have to be at max hit points. So rather than just being a conversion of the 1e's fighter's ability to mow down lots of mooks in a single round, my version basically greatly reduces the likelihood of weapon using characters wasting overkill damage.

The samurai fighter has been really mowing things down with that. They also have Great Weapon Master (my version is basically the 2024 version, but no bonus action is required for the additional attack, and you don't get the ability score increase). Both of those together mean this character is a real whirlwind of death. I'm not sure we've been properly remembering to have the monk and rogue in the party take advantage of the rule, since it's pretty new, but that's something I've had on my list to remind them about. If the rogue can set themselves up so that two targets are valid for sneak attack (relatively easy in the sorts of melees I run), they can eliminate a lot of lost overkill damage from sneak attack.

Another real minor rule I made is that if you are Dodging and someone gets a nat 1 on an attack against you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against them. I figured that would almost never come up, but the very first session we tried it the monk kept getting use out of it. It was mostly just a way to make Dodge feel a little bit less of a waste of an action, but it seems like it might synergize decently with monk features.

I do not expect the changes that I've made to the classes would be satistfactory for those who have more of a problem with caster/martial disparity (the classes won't get as a big of a buff as 2024 gives them), but they seem to be working well for where my group sits.
 
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Something I've been thinking about is that there are plenty of concentration spells that have potion version, and those don't take up concentration. Potions of energy resistance, potion of growth, potions of giant strength...

Especially now that item crafting is more normalized, how does this line up?
Looking over the potions, I notice a few things. It's a heavily curated list, rather than a blanket invitation to stuff any spell you want into a bottle. The effects are limited; no upcasting, and often weaker than the equivalent spell. And finally there's the rarity, which scales the time and cost for the really good stuff very quickly.

For example, a Potion of Flying doesn't require Concentration. Compared to the Fly spell it can't be upcast to effect multiple targets, and doesn't increase your Speed to 60ft. And it's Very Rare, which means it's 62 days and 10,000 gold to craft, which is quite a bit for a single use. A Potion of Heroism stacks the effects of Bless and Aid, but both only single target and still requiring 25 days and 1000 gold. These are non-trivial investments for single use consumables. Maybe worthwhile for a specific scenario or boss encounter, but not for regular use.

I will note an important caveat, though. Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron is a new 6th level Warlock and Wizard spell that turns out five temporary bottles of a selected Common or Uncommon potion. This is an amazingly flexible spell that makes things like Potions of Growth or Potions of Pugilism entirely practical for casual use. But the caster has to be willing to devote their 6th level spell slot to it, and it caps at Uncommon for a very good reason.
 

Ah, yeah. It looks like I wasn't terribly clear. The idea is that casters having the world-changing non-combat stuff doesn't necessarily make you feel overshadowed as a non-caster, when that isn't something you are going for with your character concept.
If you want to be able to have great impact outside of combat you must be a caster? This seems bad, because it gatekeeps influence behind class and it says that if you want to play a martial all you care about is DPR.
 

Ah, yeah. It looks like I wasn't terribly clear. The idea is that casters having the world-changing non-combat stuff doesn't necessarily make you feel overshadowed as a non-caster, when that isn't something you are going for with your character concept. Your character is putting out more round after round damage, or tanking better, or being incredible with skills, or doing whatever it is that they are focusing on being good at with that class, that the casters aren't doing, and therefore not feeling overshadowed. So, it is about not caring about being overshadowed in certain manners, which is kind of something that everyone has to do anyway. Picking someone without heavy armor proficiency is choosing to be overshadowed if you care about wearing the heaviest armor (which most people don't). It's just that, in my experience, not every player cares about having the world-changing non-combat stuff. I mean, I love casters (I honestly like just about every class), but when I'm not playing a caster, I personally don't tend to care about that. If I'm playing a tricksy rogue, I care about being the best at that (and probably about doing a good job being the group's comedian), etc.

I think that its relatively rare that people play characters with just a single focus. Not many players who build a character to be tough, or deal decent damage, are happy to just switch off if the party isn't in combat.
Most players want to contribute (as opposed to dominate!) in many aspects of the game. When it comes to what can be achieved out-of-combat, just being good at skills can't really compete with being good at skills and having world-changing powers.
This really comes to a head if the one with the world-changing powers can also be the one overshadowing in combat as well.

I have literally been asked to tone it down when I was playing a utility wizard. My performance in combat wasn't anything special: just a concentration spell then cantrips generally, but out of combat I had, or could develop solutions to a lot of situations.
I thought I was being helpful, but hadn't realised that I was cutting of a lot of opportunities for other player's characters to shine by pulling automatic answers out of my bag of tricks until they told me OOC.
 


I think that its relatively rare that people play characters with just a single focus. Not many players who build a character to be tough, or deal decent damage, are happy to just switch off if the party isn't in combat.
Most players want to contribute (as opposed to dominate!) in many aspects of the game. When it comes to what can be achieved out-of-combat, just being good at skills can't really compete with being good at skills and having world-changing powers.
This really comes to a head if the one with the world-changing powers can also be the one overshadowing in combat as well.

I have literally been asked to tone it down when I was playing a utility wizard. My performance in combat wasn't anything special: just a concentration spell then cantrips generally, but out of combat I had, or could develop solutions to a lot of situations.
I thought I was being helpful, but hadn't realised that I was cutting of a lot of opportunities for other player's characters to shine by pulling automatic answers out of my bag of tricks until they told me OOC.
Sure, that's true. Most fighters want to have a skill or two they are the best in the group at, a useful background feature, etc. I'm not disagreeing with that.

One of the things I was alluding to is that the position that either non-casters need to have features that allow them to accomplish the same sorts of major non-combat effects that high level spells can accomplish, or casters need to not have that capability--which I see a dedicated following for online (and not just for D&D, but other RPGs), is not a position that I have ever experienced with any D&D players. I've seen enough people online with similar experiences, that, along with the statistical information we get about things like popularity of various classes, I believe the position to be a relatively small minority (though with broader representation amongst RPG theorists like myself).

It's kind of getting off topic for the thread though, so to reorient, the reason I even brought it up was to say my group (and I believe many others) do not experience the problem wih caster dominance that the minority with that position take, and therefore a rule that increases caster power slightly isn't something we see as worthy of automatic rejection (while those with that position would tend to see it that way). I was proactively addressing that anticipated criticism, so that I could instead get critiques that are more relevant.

I should also note that by classifying a position as a minority one, I don't intend to invalidate or marginalize it. There are perfectly good reasons to look for such a play style (and I myself hold many minority gaming positions). I do feel like the position can require significant shifts from both the D&D rules and lore to truly implement. LevelUp, while it didn't really work for our group, did a pretty good job of giving non-casters grounded out of combat utility that works for some people without deviating too far from D&D assumptions. More drastic changes, such as taking a mythic approach that makes non-magical characters clearly superhuman in the fiction, is I think (like many major deviations from classic D&D) a better fit for other RPGs entirely.
 

One of the things I was alluding to is that the position that either non-casters need to have features that allow them to accomplish the same sorts of major non-combat effects that high level spells can accomplish, or casters need to not have that capability--which I see a dedicated following for online (and not just for D&D, but other RPGs), is not a position that I have ever experienced with any D&D players. I've seen enough people online with similar experiences, that, along with the statistical information we get about things like popularity of various classes, I believe the position to be a relatively small minority (though with broader representation amongst RPG theorists like myself).
And while you haven't seen that irl I have seen it, in fact I know several people who actively dislike D&D for this specific reason. You might think "you've searched these people out" or "it's confirmation bias" or something but no. One of them in particular had this opinion before I had it. I, like you just now, dismissed his opinions. I did not see a problem.

Then I made the mistake of playing a fighter in 5E and I quickly understood exactly what the problem was.
 

The rest of your post is quite thorough and reflects good playtesting practice (which, believe me, I don't say that very often!), but I wanted to pull this part out for comment because it...just comes across as kind of self-contradictory.

On the one hand, you say "my veteran group has [effectively never] had a problem with feeling that non-casters are overshadowed." But then you say "amongst groups that accept that the world-changing non-combat stuff in D&D is exclusively for caster classes".

Like, even apart from the optimization thing and the false dichotomy you've asserted with it, I don't see how those two statements can possibly be reconciled. That is quite literally saying, "My players have accepted that being a non-caster means being overshadowed by the casters." It's not that they don't feel overshadowed--it's that they've decided not to care about it.

My experience is consistent with the other posters. I have never had a problem with non-casters being overshadowed and in that statement I am talking about 44 years of gaming in 4 different D&D editions and with a many, many different groups both as a player and a DM.

I know it is a problem for people on this forum, but it is not something I personally have had an issue with.

Casters in modern versions of D&D (3E, 5E, 2024) are objectively more powerful than non-casters but this has not been a problem at the tables I have played on. Experienced players that go in with eyes wide open know this when they play a non-caster class. I personally play a substantial number of Fighters and a ton of Rogues and Rangers. I also play full casters, but I play more of those three classes than I do any full caster class and when I play those classes I expect the full caster PCs at the table to be able to do those wordlbreaking things, and I don't expect my PC to do those things. If I wanted my PC to do those things I would have picked a full caster class. If being the top dog and "winning" the table was important I would always play a full caster. There are some players that want that and those players do gravitate towards full casters.

Where this could conceptually be an issue is with new players who "don't know any better", but it really at a practical level is not a problem there either when it comes to classes. If they are playing an ultra-powerful class with a party of all newbies they don't know enough to really overshadow anyone based on the mechanics. If they are playing at a mixed table with experienced players and newbies that experience is going to account for far more of this than class mechanics will.
 

Sure, that's true. Most fighters want to have a skill or two they are the best in the group at, a useful background feature, etc. I'm not disagreeing with that.

Tactical Mind is a massive increase on skill checks. When compared to other PCs with an equal ability score; Fighters are the best class when it comes to skills from levels 2-4, and even with no proficiency, they will be better than other PCs with Expertise. At level 5-8 They are still hands down the best at skills they are proficient in and among the best in skills they don't have proficiency. At level 9+ they are still either the best or among the best at any skills they are proficient in.

At higher levels a Rogue with both reliable talent and expertise will be more "reliable" on checks that are easy or moderate, but a Fighter with proficiency will generally be the best in the party at checks with a very high DC.

The +5.5 average on Tactical Mind means a Rogue or Bard needs to have expertise and be 17th level to have a higher median than a Fighter with proficiency and the same ability score. Even at very high level, the +10 max boost means it will still be possible for proficient fighters to make checks that are impossible for Rogues and Bards with expertise.
 
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