D&D General If we were re-designing the Tiny Hut-esc 'instant shelter' spells what would we change?

The separation of "magical" from "supernatural" is meaningless here because it has no relevance to the discussion of balance and design of the "instant shelter" spells. It's not even a meta-discussion, it's just bleed over from other threads.

It was being discussed as part of dispel magic and antimagic zones.

As far as changes to tiny hut? As I stated above I don't allow any attacks from inside the hut and it doesn't have an impervious floor.

Rope trick? Can't remember the last time I saw it used and I don't think allowing a good hiding spot is all that powerful. It doesn't prevent enemies from potentially knowing where you last were and sitting in wait for your return.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Extraordinary falls into the category of "action movie physics" for me. Anything that doesn't work with that definition will for me fall into the category of "supernatural" (no matter what the people in setting see it as), and would therefore be suppressed by an antimagic field.

Just my take.
No that's not Ex, all three were purely mechanical under a thin and very flexible layer of fluff. There was a relevant mechanical difference between (Su) & (Sp) had some important mechanical differences but were unquestionably magic
Special Abilities
Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Table: Special Ability Types
ExtraordinarySpell-LikeSupernatural
Dispel: Can dispel magic and similar spells dispel the effects of abilities of that type?

Spell Resistance: Does spell resistance protect a creature from these abilities?

Antimagic Field: Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability?

Attack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?

DispelNoYesNo
Spell resistanceNoYesNo
Antimagic fieldNoYesYes
Attack of opportunityNoYesNo
Special Abilities
A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.


Could it be dispelled, was it impacted by antimagic & did it provoke an AoO were the critical mechanics juggled by the three & I'm fairly certain I recall some feats/prc Boons that would toggle some race/class abilities into a different one of those there were plenty of abilities (like sneak attack & trapfinding) that were not any of those three for various reasons
 

No that's not Ex, all three were purely mechanical under a thin and very flexible layer of fluff. There was a relevant mechanical difference between (Su) & (Sp) had some important mechanical differences but were unquestionably magic
Special Abilities
Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Table: Special Ability Types
ExtraordinarySpell-LikeSupernatural
Dispel: Can dispel magic and similar spells dispel the effects of abilities of that type?

Spell Resistance: Does spell resistance protect a creature from these abilities?

Antimagic Field: Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability?

Attack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?

DispelNoYesNo
Spell resistanceNoYesNo
Antimagic fieldNoYesYes
Attack of opportunityNoYesNo
Special Abilities
A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.


Could it be dispelled, was it impacted by antimagic & did it provoke an AoO were the critical mechanics juggled by the three & I'm fairly certain I recall some feats/prc Boons that would toggle some race/class abilities into a different one of those there were plenty of abilities (like sneak attack & trapfinding) that were not any of those three for various reasons
I'm not interested in the mechanics in this context. I'm interested in how far the effect deviates from reality. It is about the fiction more than the rules to me.
 

3e may have had the golf bag of weapons, but it also has classifications for abilities. Set a clear delineation of "magic" vs "not-magic".

  • Extraordinary - beyond the capabilities of the real world, but not magical in the sense Detect Magic or Anti-Magic affected it. Creatures being able to jump 30ft was often Ex as was dwarves sensing depth, elemental engulf, etc. I think some forms of wingless flight, like elementals, was Ex. Pretty sure beholder flight was Ex.
  • Supernatural - an innate magical ability that did not operate like spell-magic, like dragon fear or most forms of telepathy. Did not function in Anti-magic.
  • Spell-like - an innately ability that replicated a spell and followed spell mechanics, excluding material components. They could be dispelled, countered, interrupted, triggered AoOs, required verbal or somatic components, etc. Racial spells were Sp abilities.
I don't agree with some of the specifics in these definitions but still credit them with being a hell of a good start.

Personally, for me if it's beyond the capabilities of the real world then it's using small-m magic to get there. This includes the very existence of non-real-world creatures, along with all sorts of abilities etc. Given that, I add a second layer of definitions:

Anti-Magic - magic is scrambled into white noise; spells and effects etc. don't work or cease working but non-real-world creatures won't suffer, and permanent effects will resume if-when the anti-magic goes away.
Null-Magic - magic is completely removed. Non-real-world creatures feel adverse effects almost immediately and will die if stuck here too long. Effects, spells, etc. of any kind end and will not restart if-when the null-magic ends, but creatures' innate abilities will resume - assuming the creature survived the exposure.
 

that it is the only reference point we have does not make it the right one to use,
I disagree; if reality is the only reference point we have then it's the only one we can use.
because our world is not the fantasy world, you are trying to determine 'normal' using a foreign standard and thus your results will be off.
I try to make the in-game physics work such that our world and the fantasy worlds (yes, all of 'em!) can and do exist in the same "reality". On that basis, it becomes both easier and necessary to use our world as the jumping-off point of reference.
 


Rope trick? Can't remember the last time I saw it used and I don't think allowing a good hiding spot is all that powerful. It doesn't prevent enemies from potentially knowing where you last were and sitting in wait for your return.
Have to say the bolded somewhat surprises me. Round here Rope Trick has always been a staple spell (it and Invisibility are generally seen as the 2nd-level must-haves by mages and their players), and is used all the time even at much higher level.
 

Well, it could try; but would probably destroy itself in the attempt unless it turned around and left within seconds if not faster.

I guess that's just where I draw the line between magic and supernatural. If ghosts go away then giants collapse, giant insects die quickly and so on. Want to defeat a tarrasque? Just cast antimagic zone and watch it crumble as whatever part of it's body is affected by the antimagic zone and it can't support it's weight along with many other effects.

To me supernatural is inherent to a creature, a ghost is not sustained or animated by magic it just defies the logic of the real world. But that's why we'll never come to a common definition and it will always ultimately be "Ask your DM". 🤷‍♂️
 

I'm not interested in the mechanics in this context. I'm interested in how far the effect deviates from reality. It is about the fiction more than the rules to me.
Except the mechanics are critical though because you can't have a shared fiction without that fiction being built on top of an agreed upon mechanical foundation . When that foundation is missing or not agreed upon it just collapses into the sand of everyone at the table having an unknowable Calvinball type fiction.

Back to the overall topic though, the 5e resting & recovery rules are the result of someone's make it simple and streamline so hard that wotc shattered the agreed foundation for what is good enough bar to meet before considering a rest. The iconic rope trick/tiny hut & similar spells are left with their original/iconic purpose collapsing under the obvious conflicting viewpoints over when rest could be good enough at table
 

I guess that's just where I draw the line between magic and supernatural. If ghosts go away then giants collapse, giant insects die quickly and so on. Want to defeat a tarrasque? Just cast antimagic zone and watch it crumble as whatever part of it's body is affected by the antimagic zone and it can't support it's weight along with many other effects.
The way I have it, something like a ghost would be destroyed almost instantly while something like a giant could last for days (though getting progressively sicker all the time) before succumbing. An Elf becomes sick within minutes and dies within a half hour or so. And so on.

This is for a true no-magic area e.g. if these creatures suddenly appeared in downtown Vancouver this afternoon. I've written up (in indecipherable-to-anyone-else scratch form) a universal underlying physics system that makes all this work and in theory keeps it consistent.
 

Remove ads

Top