D&D General If we were re-designing the Tiny Hut-esc 'instant shelter' spells what would we change?

TiQuinn said:

I think it’s a stretch to think that every random encounter is going to include a spell caster who has Dispel Magic.

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Correct answer here is that it totally depends on the world the DM is running. In a Low Magic world where PCs are some of the only spellcasters, it's a huge stretch. In a High Magic world where NPC Adventurers of higher level than the PCs are commonplace, not remotely a stretch at all. For worlds somewhere in between, TBD

Also technically it wouldn't be "every random encounter", it would just be every encounter that the Players realize occurred. If random monsters without Dispel Magic would just wander off and the only monsters the Players actually deal with are the ones with Dispel Magic, then yeah by default every encounter includes a spell caster with Dispel Magic.

DrJawaPhD said:

Correct answer here is that it totally depends on the world the DM is running. In a Low Magic world where PCs are some of the only spellcasters, it's a huge stretch. In a High Magic world where NPC Adventurers of higher level than the PCs are commonplace, not remotely a stretch at all. For worlds somewhere in between, TBD

Also technically it wouldn't be "every random encounter", it would just be every encounter that the Players realize occurred. If random monsters without Dispel Magic would just wander off and the only monsters the Players actually deal with are the ones with Dispel Magic, then yeah by default every encounter includes a spell caster with Dispel Magic.

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The problem is, virtually no monsters actually come with dispel magic. Only humanoids and not all that many of the humanoids at that. It works fine if your adventures mostly feature humanoids. But, for a lot of adventures, and a lot of AP's, they really don't.

Hussar said:

The problem is, virtually no monsters actually come with dispel magic.

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All monsters come with whatever abilities the DM gives them.

DrJawaPhD said:

All monsters come with whatever abilities the DM gives them.

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Well, sure. But, I'm thinking that if you start giving Dispel Magic to normal tigers, your players might give you quite a bit of side-eye.

IMO, far better just to talk to the players and come to a compromise over the spell. Something along the lines of, "Look, this spell is meant to let you rest. If you use it the way it's intended, we're all going to be happy. If the spell is going to be a pain in my butt as the DM, I'm just going to ban it."

James Gasik said:

I think the problem with this is defining what is 'supernatural' in a setting. We can define it from our real worl perspective, of course, but a lot of things might be considered perfectly normal to people living in a fantastic world.

"Yep, that there waterfall has flowed upwards since anyone can remember. Just a fact of life around these parts. Oh and that sky island up there? Great pasture for grazing, the dogs are smart enough to keep the sheep from falling off. Though you have to be brave to cross the bridge to get there!"

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I feel you have to define it from our perspective, or the idea has no meaning.

Micah Sweet said:

I feel you have to define it from our perspective, or the idea has no meaning.

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i feel you cannot define it from our perspective because it would just put everything over the line, we are outsiders in this scenario looking in from an entirely different reference point, how can we begin to judge what passes for normal in their world if we're using our standards? you cannot expect the deep-sea anglerfish to tell what is considered normal in the forest when it is using the standards of the ocean.

James Gasik said:

I think the problem with this is defining what is 'supernatural' in a setting. We can define it from our real worl perspective, of course, but a lot of things might be considered perfectly normal to people living in a fantastic world.

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3e may have had the golf bag of weapons, but it also has classifications for abilities. Set a clear delineation of "magic" vs "not-magic".

• Extraordinary - beyond the capabilities of the real world, but not magical in the sense Detect Magic or Anti-Magic affected it. Creatures being able to jump 30ft was often Ex as was dwarves sensing depth, elemental engulf, etc. I think some forms of wingless flight, like elementals, was Ex. Pretty sure beholder flight was Ex.
• Supernatural - an innate magical ability that did not operate like spell-magic, like dragon fear or most forms of telepathy. Did not function in Anti-magic.
• Spell-like - an innately ability that replicated a spell and followed spell mechanics, excluding material components. They could be dispelled, countered, interrupted, triggered AoOs, required verbal or somatic components, etc. Racial spells were Sp abilities.

Outside of the 3E definition, I doubt there's been clear distinction between mundane, supernatural and magical. Even then I never agreed 100% with their definition. For me?

• Mundane can exist in the real world, although it may be extreme or (in 3E terms) extraordinary but still theoretically possible.
• Supernatural includes anything that does not exist in the mundane world. Ghosts, giants, dragons are all supernatural. Ghosts (at least verifiable ones) don't exist, Giants don't have the right structure to support their size, undead vampires are impossible outside of fiction, flying and breathing fire may work for dragons in fantasy but not the real world.
• Magical is any supernatural effects created by spells or crafting.

There are gray areas for me, especially the difference between supernatural and magical and largely based on gameplay. A giant shouldn't suddenly collapse because they step into an antimagic zone. A zombie can be created by an animate dead spell, but it is an undead creature once it's animated and is no longer powered by a spell unlike an animate object.

But those are just my definitions and what I would apply. I do also have an extremely rare null magic zone which negates any an all supernatural effects. If Strahd stepped into a null magic zone he'd just become a corpse, even gods would cease to exist (at least in physical form). Basically if something wouldn't work in the real world, they don't work in a null magic zone. They're quite boring.

CreamCloud0 said:

i feel you cannot define it from our perspective because it would just put everything over the line, we are outsiders in this scenario looking in from an entirely different reference point, how can we begin to judge what passes for normal in their world if we're using our standards? you cannot expect the deep-sea anglerfish to tell what is considered normal in the forest when it is using the standards of the ocean.

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We are using the only reference point we can IMO, because it's the one we live with every day.

Hussar said:

Well, sure. But, I'm thinking that if you start giving Dispel Magic to normal tigers, your players might give you quite a bit of side-eye.

IMO, far better just to talk to the players and come to a compromise over the spell. Something along the lines of, "Look, this spell is meant to let you rest. If you use it the way it's intended, we're all going to be happy. If the spell is going to be a pain in my butt as the DM, I'm just going to ban it."

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With apologies to Survivor and Rocky fans ...

It's the eye of the tiger, it's the spell of the night
Dispellin' all the tiny huts of his rivals
And the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night
And he's watching us all with the spell of the tiger