D&D (2024) Its The Same Game Right? 5.0 Options in 5.5

MerricB said:

My term for it is "mathematical compatibility". Mechanically, it may or may not work, but the underlying mathematics is pretty consistent.

I've just written an article showing one of the unexpected incompatibilities I've encountered using a 2014 adventure with the 2024 core rulebooks.

There's a couple of interactions that may break more than you expect.

Cheers!

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• Custom backgrounds instead of the goofy background selection system in D&D 2024.
• No wide open magic item crafting system.
• A bunch of magic items you probably want to be very careful with like enspelled weapons, viscious weapons, oil of sharpness, and rings of resistance.
• A bunch of spells and spell interactions you want to watch out for like upcasting summon minor elementals.

EzekielRaiden said:

I cannot quote the person in question (and have previously been admonished for skirting around it)

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ECMO3 said:

I think Dual Wielding Elven accuracy on high level Champions is weaker than strength-based GWM Champions in terms of damage output.

The third dice is most effective mathematically when the chance to miss is high, which it usually isn't for a high level fighter.

The third dice advantage does let you cash in on the better crit range, but you are only doing 1d6 extra damage with a crit vs 2d6 with heavy weapons.

Finally dual wielding with Elven Accuracy/Vex gobbles up your bonus action every turn.

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Zardnaar said:

Vicious short sword, scimitar of speed, vex and nick.

I tested champion at 12 with flametongue and scimitar of speed iirc.

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ECMO3 said:

The problem with Vex-Nick is it doesn't work well with Elven Accuracy. Every time you make an attack with the nick weapon you lose advantage. To use Elven Accuracy most effectively you don't want to use Vex-nick, you want two Light Vex Weapons (short swords) and use one of them with a Bonus action. That in turn gobbles up your bonus action and on a fighter it takes away the extra movement you can get from it.

Scimitar of Speed as in the example could give you a 5th attack but then it is 2 attacks a round you won't have advantage on while still using your bonus action.

Someone with a heavy weapon is not facing this limfac, the only time they have a competing bonus action they need for an attack is when they crit or drop an enemy.

In terms of damage, a Viscouos Short sword and Scimitar of Speed is pretty darn specifc and the best you will do is 11d6+5xDex+4 if you use your bonus action every turn. Nominally 67.5 before crits if you take Two Weapon Fighting Style.

For comparison a Viscous Maul with GWM is 12d6+3xprof+3xstrength, so at +5 prof this is nominally 72 and that is without using any bonus actions. Add another 4d6+prof+strength with Hue if you crit or drop an enemy and have a bonus action and that is without a fighting style.

If you count crits, assume every attack hits and every single attack is for some reason at advantage, including attacks following nick, at 15th level you get 83 DPR using Eleven Accuracy with Viscous Short Sword and Scimitar of Speed and 109 DPR using GWM and a Viscous Maul (includes chance to crit, and Hue attack). Add in action surge and 3 more attacks from the Maul, vs 3 from the Shortsword and that lead only grows.

With topple, I think the GWM character is actually getting advantage on a higher percentage of attacks than the character with Vex-Nick (albeit with 2 dice instead of 3).

I am not saying Elven Accuracy is not good, but I don't think it is overpowered in the new rules and not really any better than other high-powered options.

Where I have seen EA work best in play so far (admittedly a relatively small pool), is on a Paladin-Rogue multiclass with a Rapier and Extra Attack.

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Zardnaar said:

Attack with your nick weapon last after vex (assuming it hits).

At level 10 you get inspiration as champion.

Use it on first Vex attack. Super advantage.

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Zardnaar said:

On sorcerer with Innate sorcerer it's sorcererous Burst, scorching ray, or chromatic orb.

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ECMO3 said:

Like I said, even with advantage on every attack it is not more damage than a Champion with GWM is doing and the GWM guy is using fewer actions to do it.



I have not seen that in play, but you are using a Sorcerer to make attack rolls for damage, so I don't think this is going to be very OP.

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Zardnaar said:

Sorcerer damage can be impressive but not worried about just danage.

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EzekielRaiden said:

I was explicitly assured, by several people, in a thread perhaps a year ago at most, that "compatible" literally did mean just making extremely small tweaks (of the tune "you get feature A at level 3, not level 2" or similar--bookkeeping tweaks, nothing more) in order to directly use all options from 5.0 in 5.5. Moreover, that it would make no difference whatsoever that some people used options from 5.0, and others used options from 5.5, and a few might even use a mixture of options from either one, without issue.

Is it your position that this is not the case, nor has it ever been the case? That, in fact, "compatible" actually means, and has always meant, "you must review each not-yet-translated option with a fine-toothed comb", because there could easily be significant problems due to failing to take into account rules differences?

Because it would be exceedingly useful to me if I could cite this as being not only the current understanding, but that it was always the understanding that "compatibility" between 5.0 and 5.5e merely meant that you wouldn't have to ground-up rebuilding, but would still need to carefully review for the possibility of game-harming consequences. That would, in fact, be something I would eagerly accept and run with--should you really mean what it seems you are saying here.

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