D&D General Simple, Gritty,Modern. Unpopular Opinions

... Of course you may like some things I have outlined. Be honest though do you want to be a player or run this stuff?

If I had the choice w/o present constraints, I'd probably play or run a niche OSR-ish game/setting.
(2E has its space in my beating heart).

Zards Specific Thughts on Mechanics. After playing 5E, TSR and OSR

1. AscendingAC is just better. Alot f OSR games have reached this conclusion.

2. Players like moving parts. I'll go with feats but there's 2 ways of doing them. Kits and archetypes also count. They increase complexity however. Archetypes may be a mistake however.

3. Conceptually 5E has a good engine and basic monster building guide. Eg small creatures have d6HD, medium d8. Large d10. Bucket of hp and low AC maybe not...

...7. Monsters need to be scary again. Energy drain could do exhaustion levels for example.

8. Most spells aren't broken. One could dump concentration but you would need to overhaul them.

9. Magic resistance needs to return. If spells cant fail monsters need to be able to shrug them off. Combine with good saves. Mindflayers shrugging off spells 90% of the time (19+ on d20 roll) changes things...

...11. S and D tier spells need to go bye bye or be reworked. One could do worse than a curated 2E or 3E spell list with the elimination of the problem spells. Magic Missile and Fireball weren't broken.

1) If the game uses AC, yes, I lean towards ascending.

2) I've been taken by GLOG style classes, but also admire the kits one finds in Cairn as well.

3) d20 + Adv. & Disadv. is the big one for me.

7) One way besides changing creature abilities would be to change how monsters are written and presented to the DM. How might you portray a lich or a member of the Seelie Court for example; they have wholly different motivations, and will say or do different frightening things to obtain them.

8) The feeling I sense contributing to this, is that players who're familiar with how magic/spell casting is handled in D&D, are tired of it.

9) This ties into (8) to a degree; less often spell casting means less need for gobs of magic resistance (tm).

11) Also tied to (8); here I'd advocate transforming "bad" spells into mundane knacks to help fill out the moving parts quota desired by players, w/o becoming too complicated.
 

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If I had the choice w/o present constraints, I'd probably play or run a niche OSR-ish game/setting.
(2E has its space in my beating heart).



1) If the game uses AC, yes, I lean towards ascending.

2) I've been taken by GLOG style classes, but also admire the kits one finds in Cairn as well.

3) d20 + Adv. & Disadv. is the big one for me.

7) One way besides changing creature abilities would be to change how monsters are written and presented to the DM. How might you portray a lich or a member of the Seelie Court for example; they have wholly different motivations, and will say or do different frightening things to obtain them.

8) The feeling I sense contributing to this, is that players who're familiar with how magic/spell casting is handled in D&D, are tired of it.

9) This ties into (8) to a degree; less often spell casting means less need for gobs of magic resistance (tm).

11) Also tied to (8); here I'd advocate transforming "bad" spells into mundane knacks to help fill out the moving parts quota desired by players, w/o becoming too complicated.
I would agree with your number 8 - I find myself wondering if it’s just that, or that the spells are so rote and boring now and mostly combat-oriented, or if it’s just nostalgia for how magic felt in pre-3e.
 

Of course you may like some things I have outlined. Be honest though do you want to be a player or run this stuff?
You already know what I'd want to play and/or run. (I suspect I'd actually prefer running 13A over 4e, but would be willing to do either.)

That said, honestly, I think you're running into a conflict of your own preferences not actually gelling together.

You want a game that is simple, but one that gives players "moving parts." That's extremely difficult to do, because every moving part directly increases complexity. Likewise, some of your examples of things to make monsters "scary" again make the game more complicated, and anything even REMOTELY like the 3e spell list, even with the broken spells removed, will be extremely complex. So you're stuck--any game that improves in one direction almost guaranteed gets worse in the other.

You want a game that offers players a reasonable feeling of progression, but you also want to preserve everything about 5e except its "HP and damage bloat"...which is the only real way players progress. Again, stuck: having meaningful progression requires that things change, and usually that they increase in some sense, but you want it to stay simple and focused and not really growing at all.

You recognize that there have been shifts both in terms of design-culture (that is, what people have chosen to value or disvalue) and in terms of design-function (that is, we've learned that some techniques are worse than others, e.g. descending AC is worse than ascending.) But you also want a number of things that have been, whether culturally or functionally, left behind...in part because you recognize that a lot of that stuff was deeply unpopular with players, and not just because it was harmful. Once again, stuck: you want the balance and the ease-of-use of the modern, but the swinginess and unpredictability etc. of the classic.

So....yeah. It seems to me that within your own personal preferences, especially when paired with your recognition of necessary things your players will require even if they aren't your personal preference, there's several contradictions. You want simple complexity and static growth and classic modernity, and I'm not sure any game will ever actually deliver on even one of those antinomies, to say nothing of all of them.
 

You already know what I'd want to play and/or run. (I suspect I'd actually prefer running 13A over 4e, but would be willing to do either.)

That said, honestly, I think you're running into a conflict of your own preferences not actually gelling together.

You want a game that is simple, but one that gives players "moving parts." That's extremely difficult to do, because every moving part directly increases complexity. Likewise, some of your examples of things to make monsters "scary" again make the game more complicated, and anything even REMOTELY like the 3e spell list, even with the broken spells removed, will be extremely complex. So you're stuck--any game that improves in one direction almost guaranteed gets worse in the other.

You want a game that offers players a reasonable feeling of progression, but you also want to preserve everything about 5e except its "HP and damage bloat"...which is the only real way players progress. Again, stuck: having meaningful progression requires that things change, and usually that they increase in some sense, but you want it to stay simple and focused and not really growing at all.

You recognize that there have been shifts both in terms of design-culture (that is, what people have chosen to value or disvalue) and in terms of design-function (that is, we've learned that some techniques are worse than others, e.g. descending AC is worse than ascending.) But you also want a number of things that have been, whether culturally or functionally, left behind...in part because you recognize that a lot of that stuff was deeply unpopular with players, and not just because it was harmful. Once again, stuck: you want the balance and the ease-of-use of the modern, but the swinginess and unpredictability etc. of the classic.

So....yeah. It seems to me that within your own personal preferences, especially when paired with your recognition of necessary things your players will require even if they aren't your personal preference, there's several contradictions. You want simple complexity and static growth and classic modernity, and I'm not sure any game will ever actually deliver on even one of those antinomies, to say nothing of all of them.

I've been playing a variety if D&Ds somewhat lately. Last week I ram a late 1E adventure for example. Currently putting togather a 2E game to replace the C&C one.

How many moving parts on what core is the question.
 



I've been playing a variety if D&Ds somewhat lately. Last week I ram a late 1E adventure for example. Currently putting togather a 2E game to replace the C&C one.

How many moving parts on what core is the question.

Have you heard about our Lord and Savior?

 

Have you heard about our Lord and Savior?

I have Shadowdark and I’ve considered running it, but sell me on it vs 2e or houseruling 5e. How hard would it be to use existing 5e material with it? 3rd party classes, adventures, monsters, crafting systems, etc.
 


I have Shadowdark and I’ve considered running it, but sell me on it vs 2e or houseruling 5e. How hard would it be to use existing 5e material with it? 3rd party classes, monsters, crafting systems, etc.

Honestly I think that would take quite a bit of work. Making classes is not extremely difficult, but the structure of a class in 5e is fundamentally different.

Monster conversion, not the worst thing.

Crafting, against that would be quite a lift in terms of shifting that over.

In terms of having some 5e design elements, lowering HP/numbers, and having it quick to pick up and get playing though, it certainly works for me as the engine of choice. Its still 'D&D' to me, but at this point I just think that the main line, honestly everything 3,3.5 (4?), PF1/2 and 5, 5.5, is just excessive.

Granted, I think for people into character options, its a bit of a non-starter.
 

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