TSR The Full & Glorious History of NuTSR

Phasestar · Mar 3, 2025

tenkar said:
Don and i are doing a video on this very subject in a few:
It looks like some clarification is needed...
Did Ernie Gygax have anything to do with the SFNG game?

Thank you for speaking up for the truth.

Sacrosanct · Mar 3, 2025

Phasestar said:
Thank you for speaking up for the truth.

It's getting worse. Don't get me wrong, Ernie has a lot of things worth criticizing (as documented in this thread so I won't rehash them), but all over social media I'm seeing people not only attribute Justin and Dave's garbage to him, but I'm seeing people mix him up with his dad. Comments like, "Good riddance. The guy called himself a biological determinist and said women don't have the brain for gaming." And that gets thumbed up and reinforced by others. And it spreads. And gets repeated by others.

The problem I have with that is it seems some people are chomping at the bit so hard to join the chorus of gravedancers, they don't care what actually happened or didn't, and this means that people will do the same when Luke passes, or another person with the name "Gygax" passes, even though they weren't remotely like that in life.

People hurt by the words and actions of Ernie (and more importantly the people he welcomed into his circle) should absolutely have the right to express their feelings. I'm not protecting or defending Ernie. I'm trying to point out that a lot of folks seem to be OK with misattributing things, and that's a slippery slope that more than often ends up with innocent people getting slandered or hurt.

Mistwell · Mar 3, 2025

Vlog of Many Things and Tenkars Tavern have a direct refutation of some of the things said in this thread, and Don directly refutes the claim that Ernie Gygax Jr. had anything to do with the Star Frontiers manual wrongly referenced in this thread by @Malmuria :

Did Ernie Gygax have anything to do with the SFNG game?

Breaking down the facts and lies about what is being now spread over a lot of social media.

www.youtube.com

LordEntrails · Mar 3, 2025

I think folks were reading into my simple post things that I was not intending. Just to make sure everyone knows my intent I wanted to clarify these points.

Sacrosanct said:
Ernie certainly did things to be critical of, but before the body is cold we just start posting things that aren't true to disparage him as much as possible?

At no point do I support posting factually incorrect or misleading posts.

Deset Gled said:
I simply don't have anything of value to add about Ernie.

Faolyn said:
On this particular forum? A week or two.

I guess I should have tagged @Morrus. Because quite simple he was making a reasonable requirement, but simple had not outlined what the expectation or duration is. I think it's only fair to the community for a clear line be drawn. 7 days, 30 days, whatever. I also don't have anything of value to add about Earnie, but I do think people should be able to know how long this requirement is.

Note I do like the idea of just locking the thread until an appropriate time has elapsed.

Sacrosanct · Mar 3, 2025

I think it was @Deset Gled who alluded to it earlier. Apologies if I'm misattributing. in regards to the time thing? It made me think how Ernie is different this time. Unlike his dad, Ernie has no legacy. 95% of gamers have no idea who Tenser is. Ernie didn't really create anything of note. So when this immediate time period is over, I'd be surprised if we brought him up again. Unlike Gary, who gets brought up every month or so to rehash his issues.

billd91 · Mar 3, 2025

Sacrosanct said:
I think it was @Deset Gled who alluded to it earlier. Apologies if I'm misattributing. in regards to the time thing? It made me think how Ernie is different this time. Unlike his dad, Ernie has no legacy. 95% of gamers have no idea who Tenser is. Ernie didn't really create anything of note. So when this immediate time period is over, I'd be surprised if we brought him up again. Unlike Gary, who gets brought up every month or so to rehash his issues.

I think Ernie will be brought up until this the whole TSR3 thing is finally put in the ground where it belongs because of his involvement. And I think that's fair though I do expect it will be less often because he's no longer contributing to the issue.
But I think he will also occasionally come up as the cautionary tale with respect to slimeballs like LaNasa using community celebrities to fame-wash their sleaze, which, again, is totally fair.

Wincenworks · Mar 4, 2025

I don't really see how anyone can reasonably conclude there should be a x day memorandum on having a negative opinion on a dead person - you feel what you feel and to pretend otherwise is insincere. Lots of people weren't super comfortable with the Irish chanting "Lizzy's in a box!" when the Queen died, but it was a natural extension of their relationship with her and to pretend otherwise or ask them to wait a week would have been absurd. All policing negative sentiment to the dead does is help people who need Ernie to be a saint because he was "on their side" (or rather, cannot deny it now he's passed on). In this case, where there is various bits of misinformation floating about Ernie was essentially the architect of the response to his passing.

In liability law there is a lot of complexity around situations where someone's actions combined with inactions, influenced people. What people allow themselves to be associated with can be as harmful as they actively doing things - particularly if they associate themselves with a thing, and allow people to claim they have further involvement. You can be found to be liable in partnerships etc you left if you fail to correct people who announce you're involved in your presence. This is why you sometimes see celebrities make tweets, clearly drafted by a lawyer, about they left x project on y date and are not involved in any other work with z person. (Or more entertainingly, John Romero's infamous "I hope you're doing well." posts. That one is more of a moral obligation, rather than a legal one - but the same principle applies).

The logic is simple, most people do not have the time to investigate everything and will draw their conclusions off limited information - you can't control everything, but you have a responsibility to take reasonable steps even when the need to do so it thrust upon you. This is one of the hazards of being a person of particular note or a public figure, which numerous influencers are slowly learning the hard way.

Ernie never claimed to be just like his father, but he leaned into being the first son who bears his father's name, and allowed others to present him as the divine successor. He never spoke up against claims the DHSM and nuTSR would benefit "Gary's children" and "the Gygax family". He didn't even step get involved when Luke started scrapping over it. He's kind of responsible for this reflecting on his whole family.

Ernie presented nuTSR as the rebirth of TSR Inc, and while he did not directly participate in the trademark nonsense he allowed people to use him as a war banner in it. He rarely spoke up against x product being a real TSR product, and when he did it was usually only on his own groups where he banned people for raising concerns (me included). He's kind of responsible for people thinking of him as a personification of nuTSR.

Ernie never claimed to be creative powerhouse, but he never about up about Tenser and allowed LaNasa and Dinehart to use his name and allude to him being involved in projects past and present. He never spoke up when people claimed he approved things, was going to be editing/guiding, etc. He's kind of responsible for people thinking he contributed to the deplorable products put out by nuTSR (including SFNG).

Ernie didn't personally participate in writing SFNG, but he talked about giving his ideas the people in nuTSR (mostly The Evil DM on The Cult of Abaddon) and giving them background, and he never spoke out against it or distanced himself when it was revealed. He never spoke up that it wasn't even a Gygax property, that he wasn't a significant part of it, and Gary would never had approved a product like that, etc. He's kind of responsible for people thinking he contributed to to the problems.

Ernie didn't publicly attack trans people, but he did post a lot of condescending statements and remained publicly close to raging transphobes. He did same some racist things, but not as many as we associate with nuTSR. He never publicly chastised DHSM or supported a positive cause, or made a commitment to improving his behaviour etc. He's kind of responsible for people thinking he shared the bigotry of nuTSR's other members.

Also a lot of the stuff he did do isn't being talked about, but is arguably as bad to many (particularly the stuff involving Luke's reputation). So correction is a zero sum game in many ways - and since there can be no lies between us, Ernie was never important enough to the wider world to warrant in depth chronicles.

Ultimately both the people dancing on his grave, and the people rushing in to defend him aren't talking about Ernie, the person who lived and died. They are not weighing his heart to see if it was lighter than a feather, they're talking about Ernie as a presence in public, specific events, and in social battles over the hobby. They are talking about his public simulacrum. They may have knowledge and experience from his personal life, but ultimately the main issue is his public persona. Ernie enabled that during his life and it cannot now magically be decoupled from him. Ernie is, sadly, also an accessible target to vent at because there are no Proud Boys or army of lawyers ready to exploit the opportunity.

Notably I think no small number of the people urgently trying to set the record straight are doing so because they feel their callouts etc may have contributed to the hate directed at the simulacrum. They vigorously criticised him in life, and now feel bad/guilt/anger over the perception of him following his death. It's something I am sympathetic towards as the only reference to Jim Ward's final work on Wikipedia is my unflattering review of GiantLands. But it's not a reason to tell the people who hate the simulacrum to just change their minds. GiantLands is objectively bad and Jim chose to stay associated with Wonderfilled, Ernie was frequently out of pocket and he chose to stay associated with nuTSR/LaNasa. Those are the facts, and the bigger risk to Jim and Ernie's legacies is reactionaries trying to use their corpse as a battering rams and define them entirely by their connection to these groups.

Reactionaries and people who thrive on hate see these sorts of events as golden opportunities to self-promote and also vilify the people they've been bullying. Many of them will not hesitate to use it as an attack. See for example, how Michael (who did nothing, far as I could find, when Jennell was besmirched by his old boss) is trying to get Mark Kern to deputize him over Ernie's death.

Every marginalized person who gets their voice silenced because they want to vent at the simulacrum is another victory for the people who want hate to define the hobby. It's Ernie's fault he's a lightning rod for this, and arguably another irresponsible action that led to more problems both for his family, and everyone else he had an impact on that it is now unresolved.

It sucks, but it is what it is. I hope it all passes soon for his family's sake, and the sake of people who get targeted by the causes that want to claim and weaponize his memory. I also hope everyone else who has unresolved feeling regarding him finds a space to resolve them, and we keep track of the actual facts of the matter as long as is necessary.

TiQuinn · Mar 4, 2025

Wincenworks said:
I don't really see how anyone can reasonably conclude there should be a x day memorandum on having a negative opinion on a dead person - you feel what you feel and to pretend otherwise is insincere. Lots of people weren't super comfortable with the Irish chanting "Lizzy's in a box!" when the Queen died, but it was a natural extension of their relationship with her and to pretend otherwise or ask them to wait a week would have been absurd. All policing negative sentiment to the dead does is help people who need Ernie to be a saint because he was "on their side" (or rather, cannot deny it now he's passed on). In this case, where there is various bits of misinformation floating about Ernie was essentially the architect of the response to his passing.

In liability law there is a lot of complexity around situations where someone's actions combined with inactions, influenced people. What people allow themselves to be associated with can be as harmful as they actively doing things - particularly if they associate themselves with a thing, and allow people to claim they have further involvement. You can be found to be liable in partnerships etc you left if you fail to correct people who announce you're involved in your presence. This is why you sometimes see celebrities make tweets, clearly drafted by a lawyer, about they left x project on y date and are not involved in any other work with z person. (Or more entertainingly, John Romero's infamous "I hope you're doing well." posts. That one is more of a moral obligation, rather than a legal one - but the same principle applies).

The logic is simple, most people do not have the time to investigate everything and will draw their conclusions off limited information - you can't control everything, but you have a responsibility to take reasonable steps even when the need to do so it thrust upon you. This is one of the hazards of being a person of particular note or a public figure, which numerous influencers are slowly learning the hard way.

Ernie never claimed to be just like his father, but he leaned into being the first son who bears his father's name, and allowed others to present him as the divine successor. He never spoke up against claims the DHSM and nuTSR would benefit "Gary's children" and "the Gygax family". He didn't even step get involved when Luke started scrapping over it. He's kind of responsible for this reflecting on his whole family.

Ernie presented nuTSR as the rebirth of TSR Inc, and while he did not directly participate in the trademark nonsense he allowed people to use him as a war banner in it. He rarely spoke up against x product being a real TSR product, and when he did it was usually only on his own groups where he banned people for raising concerns (me included). He's kind of responsible for people thinking of him as a personification of nuTSR.

Ernie never claimed to be creative powerhouse, but he never about up about Tenser and allowed LaNasa and Dinehart to use his name and allude to him being involved in projects past and present. He never spoke up when people claimed he approved things, was going to be editing/guiding, etc. He's kind of responsible for people thinking he contributed to the deplorable products put out by nuTSR (including SFNG).

Ernie didn't personally participate in writing SFNG, but he talked about giving his ideas the people in nuTSR (mostly The Evil DM on The Cult of Abaddon) and giving them background, and he never spoke out against it or distanced himself when it was revealed. He never spoke up that it wasn't even a Gygax property, that he wasn't a significant part of it, and Gary would never had approved a product like that, etc. He's kind of responsible for people thinking he contributed to to the problems.

Ernie didn't publicly attack trans people, but he did post a lot of condescending statements and remained publicly close to raging transphobes. He did same some racist things, but not as many as we associate with nuTSR. He never publicly chastised DHSM or supported a positive cause, or made a commitment to improving his behaviour etc. He's kind of responsible for people thinking he shared the bigotry of nuTSR's other members.

Also a lot of the stuff he did do isn't being talked about, but is arguably as bad to many (particularly the stuff involving Luke's reputation). So correction is a zero sum game in many ways - and since there can be no lies between us, Ernie was never important enough to the wider world to warrant in depth chronicles.

Ultimately both the people dancing on his grave, and the people rushing in to defend him aren't talking about Ernie, the person who lived and died. They are not weighing his heart to see if it was lighter than a feather, they're talking about Ernie as a presence in public, specific events, and in social battles over the hobby. They are talking about his public simulacrum. They may have knowledge and experience from his personal life, but ultimately the main issue is his public persona. Ernie enabled that during his life and it cannot now magically be decoupled from him. Ernie is, sadly, also an accessible target to vent at because there are no Proud Boys or army of lawyers ready to exploit the opportunity.

Notably I think no small number of the people urgently trying to set the record straight are doing so because they feel their callouts etc may have contributed to the hate directed at the simulacrum. They vigorously criticised him in life, and now feel bad/guilt/anger over the perception of him following his death. It's something I am sympathetic towards as the only reference to Jim Ward's final work on Wikipedia is my unflattering review of GiantLands. But it's not a reason to tell the people who hate the simulacrum to just change their minds. GiantLands is objectively bad and Jim chose to stay associated with Wonderfilled, Ernie was frequently out of pocket and he chose to stay associated with nuTSR/LaNasa. Those are the facts, and the bigger risk to Jim and Ernie's legacies is reactionaries trying to use their corpse as a battering rams and define them entirely by their connection to these groups.

Reactionaries and people who thrive on hate see these sorts of events as golden opportunities to self-promote and also vilify the people they've been bullying. Many of them will not hesitate to use it as an attack. See for example, how Michael (who did nothing, far as I could find, when Jennell was besmirched by his old boss) is trying to get Mark Kern to deputize him over Ernie's death.

Every marginalized person who gets their voice silenced because they want to vent at the simulacrum is another victory for the people who want hate to define the hobby. It's Ernie's fault he's a lightning rod for this, and arguably another irresponsible action that led to more problems both for his family, and everyone else he had an impact on that it is now unresolved.

It sucks, but it is what it is. I hope it all passes soon for his family's sake, and the sake of people who get targeted by the causes that want to claim and weaponize his memory. I also hope everyone else who has unresolved feeling regarding him finds a space to resolve them, and we keep track of the actual facts of the matter as long as is necessary.

Thank you for speaking up for the truth.

the Jester · Mar 4, 2025

Wincenworks said:
I don't really see how anyone can reasonably conclude there should be a x day memorandum on having a negative opinion on a dead person

I don't think anyone has called for that; just for giving a reasonable amount of time for people to grieve before talking smack about the dead.

Nobody is thought policing here. It's about practicing decorum.

cole1312 · Mar 4, 2025

the Jester said:
I don't think anyone has called for that; just for giving a reasonable amount of time for people to grieve before talking smack about the dead.

Nobody is thought policing here. It's about practicing decorum.

Hence why I think there should be a lock if there's going to be a requirement on waiting to talk about him. It's not easy to keep decorum when discussing someone who advanced the idea that you should not exist. Even if it wasn't as direct as his friends, he was still posting stuff up to this last week of that nature.

Like... there is someone actively in this thread who was part of the same company, defending Ernie. Someone who was there for all the nazi stuff, same as Ernie. I don't mind waiting a while for heads to clear and families to grieve before dumping more on the guy, but I really mind someone who happily worked for the racism factory being allowed in here while the people this company would happily victimize are kicked out because of "decorum."

TSR The Full & Glorious History of NuTSR

Phasestar

Explorer

Sacrosanct

Legend

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

Did Ernie Gygax have anything to do with the SFNG game?

LordEntrails

Hero

Sacrosanct

Legend

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️

Wincenworks

Hero

TiQuinn

Registered User

the Jester

Legend

cole1312

Explorer

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