D&D 3E/3.5 The 4E We Didnt Get.

_Michael_ said:

Maybe we should make a thread for low-magic options and resources for 3.5e. That way, we could list all the different options and/or possibilities for alternative rules. What did PF have for "explicit guidelines" for low-magic campaigns as Rabindranath mentioned above?

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I think a separate thread would be helpful to avoid derail this one, but briefly:

• The 3.0 DMG (not the 3.5 revision, though, for some reason!) suggests to reduce the frequency of magic items, and that there are no shops where to buy them. PF1e adopts the solution of reducing the amount of treasures by half (which, in terms of impact on the average, is the same as reducing the frequency by half.) PF1e reduces by half the sale prices in communities (instead of removing sale outright).
• PF1e doesn't have the "Power Components" variant (at least in the core book; might be in some splat?) In my experience, this has a quite big impact on the low-magic feel, because PCs can in theory still craft magic items even at reduced frequency of treasures (although at a reduced rate, because they get less money overall.) Not sure how I'd port this to PF1e since it lacks XP expenditure for magic items. I routinely use this variant in my 3.0 games (at the maximum suggested cost of 20gp per XP.)
• There's another tweak, which is to change the accrual rate of XPs. 3.x suggests some percentage by which to reduce XP, which also translates into a corresponding reduction in treasure (and thus magic items.) PF1e adopts two explicit scales, which are (as far as I can tell) at a 1.5 factor (the baseline XP progression is "fast"; the medium one is scaled by 1.5, the slow one scales the medium one by 1.5 again, i.e. 1.5*1.5=2.25 the fast one.) For simplicity, I adopt a scale of 2 in my 3.0 games. Note that you can combine this with a reduced frequency, to get an even bigger reduction.
• If you are interested in Dark Sun, Paizo/WotC published some conversion notes in Dragon and Dungeon Magazine back then. Can't recall the issues, though.
• To further hit the PCs in the pockets (so that they can't blow it all in crafting magic items), you can use the training variant (again, PF1e removed this.)
• That said, magic will still be D&D-style magic, only at a massively reduced rate (and curb-stomping on the PCs ability to craft magic items witht the Power Components variant is fundamental). If you want dangerous magic, a good option is to use Call of Cthulhu d20 (written by Monte Cook and John Tyne.) I have used it to excellent effect to play Hyborian Age and pulp Sword & Sorcery campaigns using the 3.0 rules. Just remove Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers, and keep only Sorcerers or Wizards as spellcasters, BUT use the spell lists and magic and tome rules in d20 CoC.

One thing I could never understand was why not keep the 30-level progression scheme, going forward from 4E into 5E? 30 levels was kinda cool. A nice split between the three “stages” of a character progression, from 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30. I don’t know, it felt different and made people feel like you leveled up faster (I think?)

Sylvain Pronovost said:

One thing I could never understand was why not keep the 30-level progression scheme, going forward from 4E into 5E? 30 levels was kinda cool. A nice split between the three “stages” of a character progression, from 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30. I don’t know, it felt different and made people feel like you leveled up faster (I think?)

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Highlighted the reason

Sylvain Pronovost said:

One thing I could never understand was why not keep the 30-level progression scheme, going forward from 4E into 5E? 30 levels was kinda cool. A nice split between the three “stages” of a character progression, from 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30. I don’t know, it felt different and made people feel like you leveled up faster (I think?)

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Waste of space. Only 1% of games total on Beyond are 16-20. 70% 1-7, 10% go above level 10. Source WotC.

4Eeach class took up huge amount of space. All those 21+ powers etc pretty much were never used. But you still gave to write content etc for it. It's a headache to run, design for etc and no one uses it.

The 2E and 3E equivalents mostly a waste of money as well.

If 4E was a 2 level game there's enough room for the missing 3.5 phb stuff eg races and classes.

Sounds like an underserved niche for campaigns and worlds that span the entire range with plenty of everything in every range for adding optional diversity.

_Michael_ said:

Sounds like an underserved niche for campaigns and worlds that span the entire range with plenty of everything in every range for adding optional diversity.

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Eh, given the relative rarity of really high-level games it probably isn't actually worth the effort.

The games that do make it to these levels of play are usually one of two types:

• Ran by really experienced DMs that are likewise capable of dealing with the game mechanics.
• Munchkins who don't really need rules to begin with.

Yeah, but the details. lol There is a stunning lack of dangerous fungi and plant life in the RPG world, and it's one that cries out for attention.

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but this thread seems neat, and it's not THAT stale.

Zardnaar said:

So in the main D&D section I started a thread about an alternative reality 3E which was AD&D 3E.

This is for an alternative reality where they made a 4E more in line with 3.X expectations.

Thoughts what would you have wanted in a different hypothetical multiverse successor to 3.5?

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Ideally I would have seen it go in the opposite direction they went. Step farther away from being a sort of Disgaea-Inspired miniatures game, and move to a more diegetic Forgotten Realms TTRPG in the style of Rolemaster 4e or GURPS; preferably while keeping cross-compatibility with 3e stuff as much as possible. Eliminate all of the class features and feats with individually tracked uses except where they have a clear in-world justification, like Dragon breath weapons and Troglodyte stench (the opposite design direction of AEDU). Maybe most abilities them cause Strain like Shadowrun 4e. Then make a tool so that Skills / Spells / Class features can be printed out to go with your character sheet (like 4e actually did get for all of its powers) so you don't need to flip through books if you have a hard time remembering what your thing does because it's with your sheet (Rolemaster 4e did that as well, in the form of making a lot of those things self-contained on photocopy-friendly sheets).

But 3.5 without Feat Trees; with ~70% WBL Baked into character building and magic items being for interesting items and not plus-numbers; and no Multiclassing penalties - would have been an acceptable half-measure.