D&D 5E 5e Psion+++++thread

Ok, hopefully five plus signs is enough, lol. I still have PTSD from the big thread a few years back (2022? Damn time sure flies)!

The main problem with Psionics is that, like a lot of things, people have different ideas about what Psionics is, should be, and whether or not it really has any place in D&D today. Most people don't feel the need for another magic system (even if it is magic-adjacent). Others feel there are third party products that work just fine (call out to Steampunkette, check out her work today!). And still others feel that all you need is some Psionic flavoring on an existing class, and feel that, say, a Great Old One Warlock is perfectly acceptable.

But since CleverNickName asked in another thread (and asked that it be taken to another thread) what I'd call a Psion, here goes. I don't have any specifics on mechanics, but here are some concepts I'd like to see.

1) NO SPELL SLOTS. I don't mind there being a limitation on how often one can use their abilities, but this is one I'd rather not see. I'd rather not track anything as fiddly as "psionic points", but that might be the easiest way. Optimally, powers would cause "strain". One thing I'm working on for a non-D&D game system right now is using something like temporary hit points as a battery for powers- you can convert regular hit points into temps with one ability, then use those temps to fuel your psionics. Sure, you can be healed later, but with a limit on how often you can create temps. The big problem with this system so far? Other sources of temporary hit points.

The main thing I'm going with here is representing the idea that psionic powers are not something normal humanoid brains are wired to do, so you are doing mental damage to yourself when employing them.

2) Psionic powers are just that, more like super powers than spells. If you're a Telekinetic, you can perform feats of telekinesis on demand, with a myriad of different things you can do with them. Thus they are more versatile in their application than a spell tends to be. For examples, a telekinetic could learn how to:

-Lift and move objects at a distance.

-Wield a weapon telekinetically.

-Slow or even stop attacks they can see.

-Levitate or even fly.

-Telekinetically "punch" someone.

-Darth Vader style Force Chokes.

One power that does all these things is obviously pretty potent, so perhaps you'd have a base, let's call it a Science called Telekinesis. As you level up, you can select sub-abilities (Devotions) for any of the above things you'd want to do (with level based requirements). You'd always have a basic ability, similar in power to Mage Hand or the Telekinetic Feat that you can call upon and perhaps start with one Devotion.

3) Magic-Psionics Opaqueness. Not transparency, in that effects of both abilities pass each other in the night, but something that mechanically represents how foreign and strange Psionics is compared to traditional forms of magic. A magical defense can protect against a psionic one and vice versa, but less effectively than normal. This of course requires some balancing, as while many creatures exist with defenses against magic, none have protection against psionics specifically, and you don't want to let a psionic character feel overpowered. Just different.

4) Specialization, specialization, specialization! While you can branch out over time, I feel that you shouldn't be picking from a grab bag of different powers (with one exception I'll discuss below). If you're a Firestarter, you start fires. If you're a Telepath, you read and influence minds. So on and so forth.

5) Wild Talents. One thing I truly enjoyed from earlier editions was the idea that anyone could develop their latent psionic potential, but what abilities gained are essentially random. A Wild Talent could be one of the following:

-the Psion's answer to the Sorcerer (Wilder?).

-a special Feat that grants some psionic potential.

-a psionic Wild Talent subclass (hard to do without unified subclass progression, so several would have to be made), where your subclass abilities give you access to different psionic abilities.

What powers you gain would be randomly determined, unless the DM allows you to choose a specific power (on their own head be it, but I can understand not being thrilled with having the super amazing power to hear light or see sound).

6) Psionic components. There's something that shows you are manifesting powers. An intense stare, the "standard telepath pose", ie, fingers to forehead. Nosebleeds (caused by strain). Focusing on crystals, showstones, or other implements. Murmuring mantras. These are unique to the individual, but being able to fully conceal your powers is something only master mentalists should be able to do.

7) Psionic items. Objects that have unique psionic resonance or have been imbued with a sliver of consciousness, thus being the psion equivalent of magic items.

8) Psionic heritages. Obviously, some species have evolved that can use some psionics- Derro, Duergar, Goblin "Blues", Elan, Maenads, and so on.

9) Psionic creatures. If your world has psionics, then it must have psionic threats. A template can be created to quickly make psychic ogres or orcs, but obviously some specific creatures should have psionic abilities (the Mind Flayer being a classic).

That's about it for now.

I think you hit on my main objection to what's been presented for Psionics in 5e - it's basically just re-flavored magic, and that's not how psionics were presented in past editions. Whatever it is, I would want it to be it's own discrete system with its own powers. I remember the Complete Handbook of Psionics in the 2e splatbook days and I liked the breakdown there of telepathic powers, psychometabolic powers, clairsentience, psychokinesis, and so on.

I agree that it should be somewhat limited. You pick one category for your powers with the possible exception of a couple powers in a related group - i.e. telepaths may be able to get something from clairsentience and psychokinesis, but not from psychometabolic. They can bring in oppositional power groups similar to the old Wizard schools.

At the risk of being strung up and quartered, can we just update the Complete Handbook of Psionics. I really liked that book.

Having struggled with making magic and psionics feel sufficiently different for a couple decades, the conclusion I've come to is this: to carve out a niche for psionics, you have to pare back what magic can accomplish.

You can't have a list of 300 spells per spell level and expect psionics to feel different. If magic can do everything, then psionics will always be overshadowed.

Here you go.

You can also get the class and powers, free, in my signature.

I feel a Warlock chassis that uses short-rest spell points covers most of the requirements.

For example, a Psion class 'invocation' can modify the Mage Hand cantrip to enable various at-will telekinesis tropes.

Regarding 'psionic components' the main point is some way to focus on a specific intention. It should be spontaneous and each psionic mages can do it differently. One person might speak or chant the intention, an other might pause and meditate, and so on. The main purpose of these techniques is to help the psionic learn how to NOT spellcast. Without such disciplines, magical phenomena would happen whenever a persons mind wanders or daydreams.

First question: are you thinking of psion as its own complete class, or as something relatively minor that can be tacked on to (amost) anyone?

To work as its own complete class I think would need - as @GnomeWorks notes above - a fairly comprehensive overhaul of the magic-and-spell system in order to carve out some sort of niche for Psions that only they can do. One obvious candidate is telepathy and-or other forms of long-range communication. Another is mind control: strip charm-dominate-etc. away from other casters (except maybe Bards) and give it over to psions.

That said, I think the more useful approach might be to have psion as something minor to add on (at some sort of mechanical cost elsewhere, not sure what, to make taking it or not a significant choice) to any class. Here, the psionic abilities might include minor detections (e.g. at-will Detect Magic at very close range or touch), minor mind-reading (advantage on discernment, for example), detection of other psionics or their effects at range and through obstructions (e.g. could detect the presence of a psionic creature in the next room), that sort of thing; with maybe more significant abilities coming online as the character reaches considerably higher levels.

Lanefan said:

First question: are you thinking of psion as its own complete class, or as something relatively minor that can be tacked on to (amost) anyone?

To work as its own complete class I think would need - as @GnomeWorks notes above - a fairly comprehensive overhaul of the magic-and-spell system in order to carve out some sort of niche for Psions that only they can do. One obvious candidate is telepathy and-or other forms of long-range communication. Another is mind control: strip charm-dominate-etc. away from other casters (except maybe Bards) and give it over to psions.

That said, I think the more useful approach might be to have psion as something minor to add on (at some sort of mechanical cost elsewhere, not sure what, to make taking it or not a significant choice) to any class. Here, the psionic abilities might include minor detections (e.g. at-will Detect Magic at very close range or touch), minor mind-reading (advantage on discernment, for example), detection of other psionics or their effects at range and through obstructions (e.g. could detect the presence of a psionic creature in the next room), that sort of thing; with maybe more significant abilities coming online as the character reaches considerably higher levels.

Click to expand...

Well, CleverNickName asked me what I'd want from a class, but I doubt you could really make one class that would let you play any psionic archetype- there's a few. But you have to start somewhere, and I figure an Esper is the best place to start.

Ideally, yes, you'd have not only Wild Talents available for characters of all classes, but psionic variants of classes like the Psychic Warrior or Skulk. A Psionic Ranger might look like the hero from the Lone Wolf gamebooks, for example.

-

As for redesigning magic, I don't think it's strictly necessary (though it could probably help). What you have to do is figure out what are the limits of Psionics, what can Psionics do that magic does, what magic cannot, what it does better or worse than magic, and what it cannot do.

Sadly, you're always going to have to use "what can a caster do at level X" as your yardstick for powers, or you end up with some of the problems I had with the Mystic, where a few of their powers were simply better than equivalent spells. Not that this is a problem per se, but when you're running an adventure that says "a caster of level X can do this and encounters are supposedly built with that in mind" and some guy comes along throwing oranges instead of apples, that can be jarring.

Paranormal Power includes Wild Talents and Psionic Archetypes for most classes. Also Psionic Monsters. And a new heritage and culture.

... huh... you could probably do a psionic background, or two, as 'Wild Talents'.

IMO, at-will low level spells, but lots of "metamagic".

Level 1: get 2 cantrips and 2 Amps. You can use your Bonus action to apply an Amp to the next Psychic spell you cast this turn, including subclass spells.

Amps
-add Int to damage roll, plus Int point spent
-increase range by 30', plus 30' per point spent
-1 point, ignore cover
-+1 DC, +1 more per point spent
(more)

Level 2, Gain Amp points equal to your level. You can only spend 1 amps per spell.

Level 3: subclass, gives at-will spells (and some other ribbon stuff). You can apply Amps to them.
Pyrokinetic: Fiebolt, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Wall of Fire
Kinesthetic: Mage Hand, Magic Missile, Levitate, Fly, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
(Ect...)

Level 5:
You regain 1 Amp Point per expend hit die.
Max 2 points per spell.
Gain a 1st level spell from the Psionic spell list. You can cast it at-will. It auto-scales.

Level 11: can use 2 Amps per spell. Max 3 points per spell.
Gain 2nd level spell to cast at will.

Level 17: max 5 amp points per spell
gain a 3rd level spell you can cast at-will.

Level 20: subclass 4th level spell.

My main concept for psionics that definitely aren't magic is as follows.

1. Pick a reasonable set of "disciplines" that contain thematically-linked elements. Ensure that these disciplines are both more strongly flavored and more strongly mechanical than spell schools, which are essentially superfluous in D&D and have been for quite a while (at least since 3e and arguably earlier).
2. In each discipline, make a set of, say, 4-5 basic powers. That's it...as far as BASIC powers go. You can, however, improve those powers to greater heights.
3. Some psionicists master just a few powers, getting their souped-up versions automatically, but lacking versatility. Others have versatility, but lack staying power, as they must always juice up their powers rather than getting them automatically so.
4. Bring back the early-edition concept of invertible powers. So, for example, the Psychokinesis (mental manipulation of forces and energies) discipline might have Thermal Manipulation as a power. This works as both cryokinesis and pyrokinesis.

Between those four things, you end up with a structure that, yes, will have some similarities to spellcasting, just because spellcasting has become the "stuff nearly every supernatural thing into it" bucket. But you'll keep both the thematics and the dynamics (=how players actually do the thing) much more distinct, even if the mechanical effects may end up similar in some cases.